You’re doing it wrong

The Right Way to Win the “Mormons Aren’t Christians” Argument
Like this:
“Mormons, we think you are not Christians and say you are not Christians in the same sense that your church says and teaches that other churches that hold to the teachings of Joseph Smith are ‘not Mormon.’ When it comes to, for example, The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and other groups that follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and practice polygamy, your church dogmatically asserts that these groups are ‘not Mormon’ and should not be known as ‘Mormon’ churches, even though these groups ‘strenuously object‘ to your efforts to label them as not-Mormon. You do this because their theology and teachings are different enough from your own to cause you concern, and you want to disassociate that from the ‘Mormon’ name. Likewise, your theology and teachings are different enough from our own to cause us concern, and we want to disassociate you from the ‘Christian’ name.” [1]
Any questions?
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[1] This argument does not represent my own personal position on whether or not Mormons are Christians. It is just one argument that a person could use. But that person would win.

Comments

You’re doing it wrong — 19 Comments

  1. Exactly. I’ve always thought it pretty hypocritical that they think they can decide who is a Mormon or not, but they get bent out of shape if you say they aren’t Christian. It’s pretty simple: If you believe Jesus is your Savior, you’re a Christian. If you believe in the Book of Mormon, you’re a Mormon.
  2. I’d say the FLDS church is Mormon but not LDS. There are plenty of branches of Mormonism, the LDS church being by far the largest. As for whether Mormons are Christians, it really depends on your definition of Christian. You could equally ask “Are Christians Jews?”. We declare Christians to be a separate religion from Judaism, but seeing as Christianity says that Jesus is the Messiah that the Old Testament speaks about, one could equally say that Christianity is just another form of Judaism.
    Also I find it ironic that the Townhall article that correctly points out that there is no genetic or archeological support for the Book of Mormon is probably written by a Creationist despite the fact that there is no genetic or fossil support for that either. I find it even more ironic that the author correctly points out that the fact that Joseph Smith did show the golden plates to the world should make one strongly question whether they ever existed, yet this same author trusts that Jesus is God despite the fact that the New Testament was written decades after Jesus’s death and we have nothing written about Jesus or his supposed miracles during his lifetime and that the non-Christian sources on Jesus or the early Christians are very scarce even after his death and many such as Josephus were almost surely changed by Middle Aged Christian copyists. The author takes a double standard where he requires that other religions prove themselves whereas for his own he feels it is okay to take on faith. (sorry, so as not to sidetrack I normally don’t post these types of comments on any of your articles unless they directly deal with religion vs Atheism, but after reading that article, I couldn’t resist.)
  3. Well, it’s certainly a better way of doing it.
    The problem is when you run into a Mormon who says – yup – you’re right.
    The FLDS should be considered “Mormon.” Just like we should be considered “Christian.”
  4. Hibernia86 ~ I think I’d be just as confused by saying the FLDS are “Mormon but not LDS.” I mean, they have the “LDS” in their names, and they split from the church after the “Latter Day Saint” moniker was in use.
    I agree, I saw all kinds of problems with Adams’ article when comparing Mormonism to Christianity. For example: yes, archaeological evidence supports parts of the Bible, but there are other parts of the Bible (the Exodus, the slaughter of the Midianites in Numbers 31) that are just as bereft of archaeological evidence as the Book of Mormon. There is a big difference between some evidence and no evidence, but evangelical Christians should be a little more circumspect about these kinds of criticisms.
    Seth ~ Yup, nothing to stop a Mormon from throwing his/her own church under the bus on this, but I think that most would be incredibly reluctant to do so. Even fairly erudite Mormons who should know better try to defend this double-standard sometimes. See Mormon Voices, for example.
  5. Well, at least the question forces people to think about the issue more seriously than easily dismissed propaganda points.
    Seriously, this guy sounds like a 15 year old girl gloating over a rival on the cheer squad.
    Oh Tiffany – soooo sorry Brad picked me instead of you to go to prom. But I’m sorry, you’ll just never have as many friends as I do. Have a nice day Tiffany. lol. :)
  6. Oh Good Grief.
    If this guy thought he was doing something new under the sun he has obviously been living under a rock. I always think it is super funny when people drag out tired old Tanner-esque arguments and traipse them about like they found the magic key that will topple the LDS church and break up the faith of all its members.
  7. “Exactly. I’ve always thought it pretty hypocritical that they think they can decide who is a Mormon or not, but they get bent out of shape if you say they aren’t Christian. It’s pretty simple: If you believe Jesus is your Savior, you’re a Christian. If you believe in the Book of Mormon, you’re a Mormon.”
    But therein lies the problem. Mormons do accept Christ as their savior, so by that definition they should be called Christians. Mormons object to the labeling of them as not-Christan because, in the popular mind, Christian means someone who believes in Christ, which they do. In a scholastic sense you can argue Mormon’s aren’t Christian because we developed independently from the Catholic and Protestant traditions so-on-and-so-forth, but to the average listener and the common definition of Christianity, saying Mormons aren’t Christian is simply untrue. It’s like labeling Mormons a Cult- it doesn’t matter what definition you’re using of cult, and in fact from most definitions of the word all of Christianity can technically be called a cult. The problem is the average listener who doesn’t know your exact definition, and so thinks his own, completely untrue thing when he hears those words.
  8. Welcome to the blog, Adam!
    I posted my own take on the senses in which Mormons are or are not Christians at Worlds Without End in August of last year, here.
  9. It’s pretty simple: If you believe Jesus is your Savior, you’re a Christian.
    Nope. That is not now nor has ever been the definition of Christianity. It makes a lot of (typically Mormon) assumptions about what the core of Christianity is that don’t really necessarily jive with the history of Christianity.
    I think you’ll get more mileage and be consistent with a lot more history with “if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and rose from the dead, you are a Christian.”
  10. In a scholastic sense you can argue Mormon’s aren’t Christian because we developed independently from the Catholic and Protestant traditions so-on-and-so-forth
    FWIW, Mormons did absolutely no such thing.
  11. Much better argument. I suspect the same dynamics that lead to the non-Christian label are the same ones at play with the non-Mormon label. People are people…
    Slippery slope arguments, are rarely convincing, are very hard to argue, and usually boil down to who yells loudest. Thus, while this argument is logical, I suspect, it will either:
    1) make Mormons more liberal in their use of the Mormon term, (a just thing),
    2) or it will increase the “volume” those who apply it feel justified in using when in a Christian – non-Christian debate.
  12. I think you’ll get more mileage and be consistent with a lot more history with “if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and rose from the dead, you are a Christian.”
    Huh? Mormons believe in this too. Kullervo, the only honest exclusion of Mormons from Christianity can be based on their non-belief in the creeds – and specifically the doctrine of the Trinity. And if you and others want to make that argument, I think it flies pretty well. But you’re never going to get a majority of traditional Christians to admit that the creeds are the foundation of their faith in Jesus.
    And Jack, throwing the Mormons their own exclusionary argument against them is something I’ve seen before – and I wholeheartedly endorse it. Like Seth though, I advocate a softening of label requirements on all fronts.
  13. Huh? Mormons believe in this too.
    I know; I’m not arguing that Mormons are not Christians.
    I’m pointing out that the broad definition of “Christianity” you have proposed, and that is typically proposed by Mormons, is not the right definition. It betrays a lack of understanding of the historic Christianity that you’re claiming to be part of (and also, sadly, the New Testament). You want to argue that you’re Christians, fine. But use the right argument.
  14. I know; I’m not arguing that Mormons are not Christians.
    K, I assumed that in your response to John’s bad argument for Mormon exclusion, you were attempting to put forth a *good* argument for Mormon exclusion. My mistake.
    You want to argue that you’re Christians, fine. But use the right argument.
    Oh, I hear ya. I can count on one hand the Mormons I’ve heard make an informed case for their own inclusion in the Christian family. To be fair though, the bad Mormon arguments often come as a response to bad TC qualifications. Like “If you just accepted Jesus as your personal Savior then…”
    If you’ve ever seen me arguing about this on the internet, I’m usually not one to focus on the Mormon case for being Christian. I’m too busy trying to address the many reasons that TCs give for excluding Mormons. And as you know, they’re usually of the John Williams variety – mis-informed and full of holes.
    I’ll say it again, if TCs want to make the case that belief in the Trinity is what makes a person a Christian, then I think it has teeth, but 90% of the TCs I’ve met or read about don’t think of their own faith in those terms – how can they make it a qualification for others?
  15. I don’t think that rejecting the Trinity makes you a non-Christian, but that doesn;t mean much, because it does make you a heretic. And if you’re a heretic that actively proselytizes, you’re adangerous and predatory heretic.
    So we’re still not in the same club.
  16. One thing is lacking from this post and comments – perspective.
    I like the definitions that a Christian is anybody that believes Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and a Mormon is anybody who believes the Book of Mormon is scripture, or follows a religion that does. Coincidentally, these are the most common definitions as well.
    The difference in comparing the two, however, comes with scale. A Christian can be a Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Adventist, or any of a number of several denominations, with no single one representing more than a fraction of Christianity. Identifying somebody as a “Christian” does not automatically imply that they follow the belief system of a particular group.
    For Mormons, on the other hand, 97% of those who call themselves Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 2.5% are members of the Community of Christ. The other 90+ groups that call themselves Mormons, including all the polygamous sects in Mexico, Texas, Utah, and Canada, comprise only 0.5% of Mormons. Many people will never in their lives meet a Mormon that belongs to any group besides the LDS church, so its easy to see that anything associated to “Mormon” is going to be identified with the LDS church.
    The link that the poster uses is not an excerpt from “dogmatic” teachings but from the “Newsroom” website as “an official resource for news media,” etc. Too often, news media would call polygamous sects “Mormons” with making no real distinction from what they’re reporting on and the church that people think of when they hear the word “Mormon.” Also, it’s not just the LDS church that’s telling the media not to name the other groups “Mormon”; it’s part of the Associated Press Stylebook for proper reporting.
  17. I like the definitions that a Christian is anybody that believes Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world
    Of course you do. But the fact that Mormons keep wanting to define Christianity in terms ofsoteriology shows how much Mormons misunderstand Christianity on a fundamental level.
    Coincidentally, these are the most common definitions as well.
    Whoa, whoa, there. Says who?
  18. The difference in comparing the two, however, comes with scale. A Christian can be a Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Adventist, or any of a number of several denominations, with no single one representing more than a fraction of Christianity. Identifying somebody as a “Christian” does not automatically imply that they follow the belief system of a particular group.
    For Mormons, on the other hand, 97% of those who call themselves Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 2.5% are members of the Community of Christ. The other 90+ groups that call themselves Mormons, including all the polygamous sects in Mexico, Texas, Utah, and Canada, comprise only 0.5% of Mormons. Many people will never in their lives meet a Mormon that belongs to any group besides the LDS church, so its easy to see that anything associated to “Mormon” is going to be identified with the LDS church.
    And the staggeringly overwhelming majority of Christians now and for the last 14 centuries or so have been orthodox, creedal, and trinitarian.
  19. Christians are followers of Christ. all groups are subsets of that. evangelical folks don’t differentlate from Catholics, it’s implied. why aren’t Mormons allowed this courtesy? I believe my church is true, I do not believe that it invalidates your walk with Christ. it doesn’t even make it inferior, as I know non-lds folks who are far closer to the saviour than I am.
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