The Trouble with State Scout-sponsored Churches

A story hit the news yesterday involving an evangelical Christian church that refused to allow a set of Mormon parents to serve as scout leaders. The story goes that Jeremy and Jodi Stokes of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints selected the scouting program at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, North Carolina, for their two sons, ages 6 and 8. Christ Covenant Church is part of the Presbyterian Church in America denomination—more conservative than the mainline Presbyterian Church (U. S. A.) that I was once a member of—and therefore thoroughly evangelical Protestant. The Stokeses wanted the large program at CCC rather than the one at their local LDS ward because the small ward troop lacked a Tiger Cubs program for their youngest boy. When the Stokeses learned that CCC was looking for Scout leaders, they were eager to volunteer, and initially it seemed that CCC was eager to have them, especially since Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout himself.
Then CCC learned that the Stokes were Mormons and apparently informed them that Scout leaders at their church must be Christians. By CCC’s interpretation of the term, Mormons don’t qualify. The Stokeses were understandably hurt and offended and decided to take their boys to the local LDS program after all, letting their youngest tag along in the older boys’ program. The incident has upset many in the Mormon community, always indignant about the “you’re not Christians” accusation. On top of that, Scout leader is one of the few low-level callings that the LDS church will allow non-Mormons to hold, so the Mormons are arguably more tolerant than these Presbyterians in that regard.
My feelings on the incident can best be described as ambivalent.
For starters, Boy Scouts of America is already a discriminatory organization. Had the Stokeses been atheists or agnostics, they would not have even been permitted to join the troop, much less serve as leaders. I’ve never been a fan of this aspect of BSA. Seems a bit silly to me to bar boys from learning to tie slip knots and craft Pinewood Derby cars just because they won’t swear allegiance to a generic deity. On top of that, homosexuals (religious or otherwise) are also barred from participation. My understanding of BSA’s popularity among conservative religious organizations was that, among other things, BSA grants local churches a high degree of autonomy and control over the programs they sponsor, which is what the churches want. So I’m not sure why anyone is surprised that a local church would use the rules of an organization that is discriminatory by nature to . . . y’know . . . discriminate.
However, there’s little dispute that Christ Covenant Church was within their rights to discriminate against the Stokeses as per the the rules of BSA. The real question is, was this an appropriate move on their part? Is it right for a local church to require Christian orthodoxy from its Scout leaders? If they consider BSA to be a sort of ministry outreach program and are incorporating more religion into it than normal, I would say “yes.” If that is the aim of their program, then Scout leaders are quasi-ecclesiastical leaders to them, and I can understand why they would not want their scouts in mentoring relationships with members of what they consider to be heretical Christian groups.
Where I think CCC erred was in tactlessly playing the controversial “It’s because Mormons aren’t Christians” card. Good arguments can be made on either side of that matter and describing Mormons as “Christians” or “not Christians” is often an oversimplification of a very complicated internal religious debate. A safer route would have been to explain that Scout leaders are expected to affirm a certain standard of historic Christian orthodoxy such as the Nicene Creed. One could hardly blame an evangelical Protestant church for saying that Mormons are heretical or deviant Christians, given that they say the exact same thing about us.
Naturally, this incident underscores the need for Mormons and evangelical Christians to understand one another better. Had that been the case, hurt feelings might have been significantly lessened—though I suspect that being told that they’re heretical Christians still would have caused the Stokeses to take their ball and play elsewhere. As an evangelical Christian who is married to a Mormon Eagle Scout, I truly wish the Stokes family the best of luck in their new Scouting program.
In my book, what this incident really underscores is the need for the separation between Church and Scouts. So long as churches are allowed such a high degree of control over the local branches of an organization that rides a fine line between religious and secular, disputes like this are bound to follow.
Three cheers for Girl Scouts of America for figuring this out a long time ago and having the foresight to avoid this kind of nonsense.

comments

The Trouble with State Scout-sponsored Churches — 66 Comments

  1. Girl Scouts forevah.
    Of course, the consequence of severing ties with religious organizations is that the funding dries up. Luckily the world is graced with delicious cookies to make up for it.
  3. The purpose of Boy Scout is not to teach 12 year old boys how to tie the bowline, but to give these boys training in what it is to be a grown up. Since at 14 and under BSA is male only it is to take boys and make men,
    husbands, fathers and leaders in the community. To be a scouter either a Boy Scout or a Scouter there are only two requirements that pertain to beliefs, Belief in God,(BSA does have a wide definition in this area) and not to be an openly gay. Where as I would like to see these rules modified, I want the values that the Boy Scout teach (Law, Oath, etc) to be pass on to the next generation.
    When the charter origination add to the restrictions they make it harder for these values to be learned.
  4. The ties to God make sense when you see the masonic ties to scoutings creation. Look at the ranks- first and second class *cough* degrees *cough* the use of the eagle *cough* phoenix *cough*; or the whole Order of the Arrow. I think it would be hard to separate the two now it is such an intrinsic part of the scouting culture.
    I think there should be a compromise made on the homosexuality issue though; not sure what that would look like though.
  5. Just a quick question. Has anyone ever seen an LDS sponsored troop or pack with officialnon-LDS leadership? I’m not talking about some mom or dad showing up in an unofficial capacity to be the assistant whatever. I mean, asked by the Bishop, filled out the official paperwork, and sustained in a ward meeting. I’ve never see it and didn’t think it was possible.
    If that does happen, it’s short sighted of the church. The church needs to keep those positions free so they can stick semi-apostates there, like myself in times past.
  6. David Clark asked “Has anyone ever seen an LDS sponsored troop or pack with official non-LDS leadership?”
    I reply “Would a non-member Scout Master qualify, because I know of several.”
  7. David: yes. I think it’s quite common to put nonLDS spouses (of LDS) into that calling, for example.
    I’m not sure about completely unaffiliated people. I don’t necessarily see why not, but I don’t imagine there would be a Sac Mtg announcement in that case. I don’t know.
  9. We have had a Scoutmaster who was not LDS who was called to the position in a Sacrament meeting. Also we have had a Laurel Class President who was a non-member. Both of them had family members who were LDS.
  10. We had a Jewish family in my brothers’ troop for years. The mother was involved in leadership positions (I can’t recall the father). I don’t remember if she was sustained over the pulpit, but I do remember that we all called her “Sister Fischer,” and that she thought it was very amusing, but not offensive.
  11. Now that I think about it, she may have had a calling on the activities committee, too. We’ve had nonmember spouses on various committees in our ward, too.
  12. I served on the ward activities committee when I was at BYU. Set apart and (I think?) sustained and all that.
    Not sure if non-LDS scout leaders have to do that.
  13. I am another Eagle less than happy with the BSA. I wish I had some real outdoor skills to replace all the merit badges.
  14. Just a little point of fact: no LDS units sponsor Tiger Scouts. Size isn’t an issue.
  15. Yeah Julie, I remember when I was serving as Webelos leader, it went – Bobcats, Wolves, and then Webelos.
    No Tigers.
    I remember going to an orientation at the local Evangelical mega church when I was called scout leader. I went to a room full of prospective scout leaders getting orientation, and they were talking about fundraising protocols, and how to drum up community support for your troop and find members. I was sitting there thinking that most of this didn’t really apply to me. I already had a set number of troop members, and funds weren’t a problem (unless we wanted to do something REALLY ambitious). But it was kind of interesting to think about the challenges facing scout leaders outside the LDS context.
    Sure enough, at a certain point the guy giving the orientation paused and asked if there were any Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unit leaders in attendance. Me and one other guy raised our hands, and he said “oh, well you can disregard most of this – Mormons have their own system and rules, so you’ll have to ask your own people about that.”
    Duly noted.
    I tell you, there is nowhere easier to do the scouting program than the LDS church. I didn’t envy the amount of work and commitment those other leaders were facing one bit.
  16. As an aside, Jack, are you planning to do “Activity Days” with your daughter? We’ve just started ours. It didn’t even exist when I was cub scout age. So far I’m not impressed, but if I complain I will probably be put in charge of it.
  17. Jessica, I’d say the quality of Activity Days varies from ward to ward.
    The two sisters running our program are absolutely outstanding, and my eight year old daughter loves going.
  18. Sure enough, at a certain point the guy giving the orientation paused and asked if there were any Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unit leaders in attendance. Me and one other guy raised our hands, and he said “oh, well you can disregard most of this – Mormons have their own system and rules, so you’ll have to ask your own people about that.”
    Been there, done that, worn the t-shirt. There really are two kinds of scouting programs, LDS ones and all the rest. And, they produce two different kinds of scouts. You can take that however your wish, there’s positives and negatives to both styles.
    I tell you, there is nowhere easier to do the scouting program than the LDS church. I didn’t envy the amount of work and commitment those other leaders were facing one bit.
    This is true, with one caveat. The LDS troops are easy to run, provided you play by the LDS rules and are willing to buy in to the LDS expectations for troops. However, if you want to go beyond that, say by running the program as the BSA envisions it, then heaven help you, the LDS rules make that impossible.
    This is fine for 95% of the LDS leaders who didn’t volunteer and want to do as little as possible while still getting the job done. However, I’ve seen loads of frustration in the other 5%, the ones that really love scouting and really want to run a quality troop in the way the BSA envisions.
  19. #14 Julie ~ Thanks. I didn’t know that. I think one of the articles I read said something about the size of the evangelical church’s scouting program so I assumed size was the issue.
    Any reason why the LDS church doesn’t do Tigers?
    #16 Jessica ~ I’m lost. What are “Activity Days”?
    I intend to sign my daughter up for Daisy Scouts next year when she turns 5. However, I’m not sure she’ll be able to participate in a regular troop. We’re still gauging how bad her VCFS is and she might be autistic. If she can’t do a regular troop, I’ll make her a Juliette.
    Seth & David ~ So what are some practical differences between LDS Boy Scout troops and others?
  20. Any reason why the LDS church doesn’t do Tigers?
    Here are the differences for cub scouts:
    The LDS church considers them too young for scouting. This holds for all cub scouts, the LDS dens are always older than their non-LDS counterparts. In non-LDS dens age brackets break down (roughly) as follows:
    6 y.o. – Tigers
    7 y.o. – Wolves
    8 y.o. – Bears
    9-10 y.o – Webelos
    LDS Dens do the following:
    8 y.o. – Wolves
    9 y.o. – Bears
    10 y.o. – Webelos
    Hence the LDS kids are usually 1 year older. This also means that the LDS kids are doing things designed for kids 1 year younger than they really are. Also, the Webelos program is supposed to be a 2 year program, but LDS kids and leaders have to cram it all into 1 year.
    Another big difference is that non-LDS dens are based on grade not age (hence the LDS kids are not always one year older, but on average they are). Non-LDS troops tend for form around a group of kids who make up the den and then graduate together and move up to the next level together. LDS dens have kids trickling in and out as they change ages. This makes it much harder for friends to stay together in LDS dens.
    The BSA encourages Webelos to do camping activities, while the LDS church disallows camping activities unless all boys have a father present. And even then, they don’t want it happening very often. This can make it hard to pass off some Webelos requirements.
  21. The last post wasn’t clear on Tigers, the LDS church just thinks they are too young.
    Here are the differences for Boy Scouts.
    For some reason the LDS church segregates 11 year old scouts from the other scouts. They severely limit how often they can go camping.
    There are three kinds of Boy Scout groups: Regular Scouts, Varsity Scouts, and Explorer scouts.
    LDS kids are put into the regular scout program at age 12 and stay there for two years. For these two years LDS kids and non-LDS kids are pretty much the same. They do the same activities and are the same ages.
    At age 14 the BSA gives you three options. First, if you enjoy traditional/regular scouting you can stay in regular scouting until you are 18. If you don’t like it any more, and prefer more sports oriented activities, you can join varsity scouts. If you prefer more high adventure activities or would like to explore career options you can join Explorer scouts.
    Usually, LDS kids are not given an option. When they are 14 they are put into varsity scouts, whether they like it or not. Almost no ward actually does the BSA approved Varsity Scout program, it’s generally just traditional scouting, but with 14 and 15 year old kids.
    Then at 16, LDS kids are put into an Explorer troop. Again, they don’t choose this, it just happens. These are _always_ high adventure based explorer scouting groups. However, since the LDS church doesn’t really want the kids doing much high adventure stuff (because of cost and insurance issues), they generally just do one high adventure activity per year.
    The focus for LDS kids is always achieving Eagle rank. However, the BSA only designed the regular scouts to have this focus. Varsity and Explorers are supposed to focus on other things, more interesting and appropriate for the older boys. But, like I said, LDS kids are pretty much stuck working on their Eagle ranks in Varsity and Explorer scouts.
    The really big difference is that the LDS church pretty much ignores the entire Explorer program. First, Explorers is all about choice. You are _exploring_ what interests you. So, there are Explorer scouts that explore police work, some explore military work, firefighting, etc. LDS kids don’t get that choice unless they go outside the LDS system.
    And the really big difference is that Explorer scouts are supposed to have both boys and girls. The BSA was actually forced to do this because of legal requirements. Many Explorer scouts get paid to ride with cops, firefighters, or perform some military jobs. Because they are paid, equal opportunity and anti-discrimination laws come into effect. Hence, girls and boys in Explorers. This is one of the main reasons why LDS Explorer units are always high adventure units, because you don’t get paid to do high adventure. Since there is never pay involved, the LDS church can legally keep girls out of their units. However, outside the LDS church there are co-ed high adventure Explorer units. The LDS church and the BSA must have come to some arrangement behind closed doors to make this all work.
    This is also why if you are told as an LDS Explorer leader to get trained, don’t bother. Absolutely nothing will apply to you. Training will involve issues like preventing sexual harassment, enforcing dating rules among the Explorer members, having co-ed entertainment, etc. None of which will happen in an LDS Explorer unit.
  22. From my experience, David’s assessment of LDS scouting practices is pretty accurate. I’d agree with the drawbacks he mentions. His explanation actually clarifies a lot of the same things I’d been noticing but couldn’t pinpoint the reason for. Like why there always seemed to be such a gap in the curriculum and the age of my boys (though let’s be honest – if you’ve grown up in the LDS Church on a diet of correlated Primary lessons, you’re already used to lessons that treat you like you’re one or two years younger than you really are).
    On the plus side for the LDS system however – you are guaranteed a steady crop of boys, and you get a lot of automatic funding from the ward budget. So you don’t have to spend a lot of time recruiting new members, and you don’t have to worry about fund-raising.
    I’m not much of an apologist for the Boy Scouts program myself. I had a dad who frog-marched me into the program – he called it the “activity arm of the Priesthood”, and a mother who basically earned most of my merit badges and awards for me. I got my Eagle, but never felt like it was something I’d obtained for myself. I had a rather careless attitude toward the program while I was in it. And as an adult, I always found the mutant hybrid relationship between the Priesthood and the BSA to be a little weird.
    I have no particular attachment to the program in the LDS context and wouldn’t mind seeing it replaced with something else (assuming you could find anything of equal quality and depth to replace it with). But I also wouldn’t be the one to pull the plug on the program (if it was in my hands). Having participated in the adult leadership end, I’ve encountered too many people for whom this program is obviously a big deal and something highly treasured. I won’t be the one to take it away from them.
    And if my remarks above have suggested that it’s possible to be really half-hearted scouter in an LDS context – that’s true. It is easy to scout in the Mormon church, and you don’t have to be that dedicated. BUT I have met plenty of really dedicated scouters within the Mormon faith – who I’d stack up against the best anywhere.
  23. All I know about Activity Days is that my daughter started going at age 8, that the girls I see participating are all younger than the Young Women program level, and that they do it every Tuesday night at the church for an hour.
  24. Perhaps the couple rejected for being Mormons should have reminded the Church in question how much support the Mormon Church gave the BSA to keep gay people out. I’m sure that would have given them more cachet.
    For Mormons who whine about being excluded–you certainly have no problem excluding homosexuals. In my case, I have 3 boys, only one of whom would be interested in Scouting. I love all the Scouting stuff, and would love to participate,but of course would be banned because I am a homosexual. Got to love the Christians excluding each other, but united only in their hatred of homosexuals.
  25. I did cub scouts at the Methodist church. I was a scout at my lds ward. I had an inactive member as a scoutmaster. He was the greatest influence on the young men of my era of anyone, bishops and stake presidents included. My only complaint was that scouting was not an option for young men back then — it was the only youth activity. Too many boys were forced to be scouts whether they wanted to be or not.
  26. Thanks for the information on Boy Scouts, David & Seth.
    Jessica, I don’t know if I will do activity days with Harley when she turns 8. Until she’s old enough to decide what church she wants to attend, she participates in both activities at my church and activities at her father’s church, so it’s pretty much impossible for her to attend every activity at both. My plan is simply to take her to the best of both worlds.
    If she wants to get baptized into the LDS church after she turns 12, I will do my best to support her in participating in LDS activities.
  27. #24 ExMoHoMoDon ~ My own feelings on BSA and gays is that I see no reason why BSA should take an interest in what’s going on in the bedrooms of its members or leaders. So long as it’s legal they should mind their own.
    Many people have told me that I ought to be concerned that GSA allows openly homosexual leaders and members. I’m not.
  28. LDS units do not create (“charter, to use BSA language) sponsor Explorer posts. They may (but are not required to) charter Venturing crews for boys ages 16-17. Since the late 1990′s Exploring has been part of an entirely separate branch of BSA, “Learning for Life.” There are still posts sponsored by police departments, hospitals, fire departments, etc.
    Unfortunately, few LDS wards or branches really use the Venturing program (or Varsity, for that matter, though it was developed for the Church units and is used almost exclusively within the LDS church). Properly used, they can both be great programs.
    Some LDS parents have chartered crews for young women to gain access to BSA resources, like Philmont. But the LDS church itself does not sponsor coed or female crews.
  29. JrL,
    You’re correct. In the post #21 if you replace “Explorer” with “Venturing” and remove this paragraph:
    The really big difference is that the LDS church pretty much ignores the entire Explorer program. First, Explorers is all about choice. You are _exploring_ what interests you. So, there are Explorer scouts that explore police work, some explore military work, firefighting, etc. LDS kids don’t get that choice unless they go outside the LDS system.
    then the comment is correct. It’s still the case that Venture crews are supposed to have more choice making in what they do, are not supposed to be focused on rank advancement, and are co-ed.
    I think what confused me is that when I got sent to training in the early 2000′s for venturing, the training for the venture stuff was similar to the Explorer training. The split had just happened a few years earlier so they might have been using some old training material. Who knows, but I stand corrected.
  30. Where I live, half or more of the packs are affiliated with the schools. One works out of a VFW post. So the belief in God aspect is held very loosely; kids fulfill the “God and…” achievements on their own, and I’m not positive it’s even required. Explorer posts may be exclusively with the high schools (I’ve never seen them anywhere else), and definitely open to boys and girls; I’m not sure most even know they’re affiliated with BSA (I had forgotten until I read it here).
  31. Regarding the Presbyterian Church in the controversy, that is a _wacko_ branch of Presbyterianism, Christian or not. Had a sister and cousin, both strong, independent women, join PCA churches in different parts of the country because they thought it was good ol’ predestination-type Presbyterianism. Both came out the other side traumatized and divorced from men who had eagerly adopted the misogynistic patriarchy taught there. Both pastors cited the SAME out of context Bible passages to support the abusive husbands and justify continuing in the marriages (“God never intended women to be happy” was one idiot’s advice to my sister).
    So far as being excluded goes, the Mormon parents were in good company… along with women, homosexuals, equality, humility, decency, and good old common sense. I’d say they all come out ahead.
  32. I have no particular attachment to the program in the LDS context and wouldn’t mind seeing it replaced with something else (assuming you could find anything of equal quality and depth to replace it with). But I also wouldn’t be the one to pull the plug on the program (if it was in my hands).
    My feelings are pretty much similar. We’ve never pushed Scouts with our boys; of three that started in Scouts, two more or less dropped out in high school because they weren’t interested in what the program had to offer (when the Scouts and their leaders spend half their time talking about sports, and the boys grow up in a home where the parents have never watched sports on TV because they think sports are boring, the boys tend to find such talk pointless). The third one will probably get his Eagle (without either of his parents doing any of it for him).
    As to the North Carolina church, I have a hard time caring one way or another. They have the right to keep out whomever they want. I never saw a reason for it to make the national news; it sounds to me like some whiny parents went to the local newspaper or TV station and it was a slow news day.
  33. Things can be really different from LDS troop to troop, too. I have known of lots of LDS troops that just crank out 14-year old Eagle scouts like nobody’s business. My troop growing up was pretty much constantly on the verge of death, with one unenthusiastic leader after another and boys showing up because they had to, if at all.
    At times I wish I had belonged to a non-LDS troop. Some of my friends in high school were active in a local troop sponsored by a nearby Presbyterian Church, and they were way more gung-ho. the troop was big and healthy, the boys were enthusiastic, the leaders were on the ball. The difference was just staggeringly obvious. I got my Eagle (and I honestly did the work for it), but at almost every point, I felt like I was a non-Scout, just taking part in the mandatory “activity arm of the Aaronic priesthood.” Those other guys at school, those were Scouts.
  34. Oh, I am just thankful that there a few oganizations in our country that our churches can utilize, and it doesn’t have to be dominated by the state.
  35. I’m believing, practicing LDS and was a Scout.
    If the Presbyterians sponsor a troop, they choose their leaders.
    To honor the blog custom of snarkiness, I’ll add that their choice this time is their loss. So be it.
  36. Joseph your comment on #13 is quite funny, I was at best a semi-active scout, got my life rank at 14 and never did anything further, I went on all the trips but wasn’t into the merit badge scene, hence why i didn’t finish my eagle. Anyway I was at a ward camp out 2 months ago and watched half a dozen eagle scouts try fruitlessly to start a campfire. They were at the point of debating where they could get gasoline to dump on it, I had to laugh and told them to step out of the way and watch how a non-eagle fire-bender does it with 1 match (yes I am an avatar nerd.) My bishop got quite a kick out of that as he watched me get a roaring blaze in about 5 mins.
    I could only think how much the scouting program in the church has failed at teaching what a tenderfoot is supposed to be able to do.
  38. So, am I the only active scout leader commenting here? I find that kind of funny.
    I am a Webelos Den Leader, and I have already done a lot of fun things with the boys. I haven’t seen any issues of the church preventing us from doing anything, as has been indicated. Regarding the note that the LDS Webelos “cram” a two-year program into one (the official program suggests first year is spent on earning the Webelos badge and the second year earning the Arrow of Light award), it should also be noted that the official program suggests meeting on a bi-weekly basis, whereas the LDS dens tend to meet weekly. So there isn’t any cramming done. We meet twice as often, and therefore finish in the same amount of time.
    The 11-year-old Scouts meet separately because they are still part of the Primary, whereas the rest of the Boy Scouts are part of the YM program. In many wards in the States, weekday activities for the YM rotate between Scouting and Duty To God. It wouldn’t make sense to have the 11-year-old Scouts joining with the others because they would be working on different advancement, different activities, different programs. Also, most units, at least in central Illinois, have abandoned the breakdown between Scout troops, Varsity teams, and Venture crews. Now all the boys are part of the Scout troops, but they still meet according to AP classes. At least, that is what they are doing in my stake.
    And regarding the OP, I agree with Jack’s assessment: CCC should have asked for an affirmation of a particular creed rather than say the lame-o “You’re not Christians” line.
  39. @ #20 & #21 – wow, I didn’t realize how much changing was done in LDS packs. Doesn’t seem like a good change to the program.
  40. Wow, I’m an Eagle Scout and I didn’t realize that scout troops were allowed to do this! Yes I knew that Boy Scout troops occasionally kicked out those who are gay or didn’t believe in God (which bothers me) but I had no idea that they gave so much control to the sponsoring churches. My troop was sponsored by an Episcopalian Church who let us use their basement to meet and store our stuff, but never interfered with our activities. It is true that the Episcopalians are more Progressive than most denominations, but this Minister was fairly conservative and I’m surprised that he didn’t join the Anglicans like much of the conservative Episcopalians did. So I had no idea that sponsoring groups were allowed to add rules of their own to the scouting troop.
    Scouting is supposed to be an organization into itself, not a collection of church groups. If BSA truly believes that people of all faiths should be welcome in scouting, then they need to enforce that at the troop level, not just in general.
  41. I am the mother of 2-2/3 LDS Eagle Scouts, and in our ward we have had both enthusiastic leaders and unenthusiastic leaders during the 15 years my sons have been involved in Scouting. Even the unenthusiastic leaders usually get the boys to First Class, if the young man is at all interested. If the young man isn’t that interested, he just doesn’t come to Church on Wednesday nights.
    As I understand the new Duty to God program, the LDS Church doesn’t want our Young Men just “passing off” their requirements for either Duty to God or for Eagle, they want them to incorporate those skills in their lives, both the spiritual ones and the practical skills.
    The Scout program has had a big impact on my boys, and it has been a very positive impact, even for my oldest, who completed an Eagle project, but didn’t complete his paperwork.
    They all remember their Scout days fondly. My third son is currently assistant Scoutmaster in our ward and preparing to leave on a mission. Our youngest is an 11 year old Scout and I hope he enjoys Scouting as much as his brothers did.
    I agree with Alex’s assessment of Scouting in our stake. I have seen some of our Webelos complete the requirements in that year’s time; the major factor is the motivation of the boy and the parents.
    Of course, that is the real major factor in any Scouting program. Motivated, enthusiastic leaders in Scouting are usually the parents of motivated, enthusiastic Scouts. The ones who care about all their troop members are the ones who are truly Christian.
  42. Leann Sounds just peachy for you. Got any good reasons why my kids should be excluded from what your kids have because I am a homosexual. I have 3 boys–thanks to your Church, I can’t participate. Since you belong to ‘the only True Church’, can you give any reasons rooted in the teachings of Jesus, which you claim to represent?
  44. The Mormon Church was a participant in the USSC case Dale V New Jersey and filed an amicus brief supporting the exclusion of homosexuals. The MC also threatened to pull out of the BSA if homosexuals were allowed to participate. The Mormon Church regularly and consistently works against equal protection under the law for homosexuals. Just wondering how you all justify that. Would appreciate anyone justifying that using the actual teachings of Jesus.
  45. Mormons are so upset because this particular church wants to exclude you, but you have no problem excluding others. Got hypocrisy?
  46. Ex, I don’t really give a crap about that other church excluding us.
    And if you want to bash the LDS Church’s stance, fine I guess.
    But again, why are you taking it out of Leann?
  47. I simply asked Leeann to explain her Church’s actions in relation to the BSA. I’m sure Leeann is an intelligent woman who can speak for herself. ‘Bashing’ the LDS Church? Please. I am dealing in facts. Sorry you can’t deal with facts.
  50. Seth, you are annoying and you are contributing nothing of substance to this discussion. ExMoHoMoDon has not displayed any SORT of emotional over-excitement or temper tantrum. Your melodramatic pretending that (s)he is, and that you by comparison are calm and level-headed, is beyond slapstick. You look like a moron.
    Either come up with an actual argument, and support it with facts and reasons, or shut up. Your nothing posts are irritating and add nothing to the issue at hand.
  51. Seth
    You see Seth, another woman who can speak for herself. Can’t blame you for copping out, since you have had nothing to say so far.
  52. Carla, I didn’t have a factual disagreement with Ex.
    The Church’s approach to the homosexual issue has been a sore spot for me for quite a while now.
    I just didn’t like the fact that Leann came in happily sharing some of her positive memories about the program, and rather than simply commenting on how these benefits were denied to a certain portion of people (gays), Ex immediately acted like this was all somehow her fault and implied that she was the one who ought to be responsible for explaining all these problems. I didn’t think that was particularly fair.
    Maybe Ex didn’t intend that meaning. If so, he can feel free to clarify his earlier post.
    And I don’t see a call for civility as “contributing nothing.” Although I have noticed that people on the Internet who actually are ruled by their anger and resentment don’t take these kind of suggestions well at all.
  53. I’m really not appreciating the tone on this thread anymore.
    Please keep it civil everyone.
    ExMoHoMoDon, for the record, I was a bit baffled by your comment to Leann as well. It just seemed abnormally irate given that her comment said nothing about homosexuals and only expressed a positive personal experience with the program. I’m not denying that she can speak for herself, but it made me wonder if you had a negative history with her elsewhere on the Net or something.
    Like I said earlier, I don’t like the BSA position on homosexuals. I think they should mind their own and stay out of people’s bedrooms. If I had boys and it were entirely up to me, there’s no way I’d enroll them.
    Unfortunately, if I ever do have boys, I doubt I’ll be able to win that argument with my husband, so they’ll probably wind up doing scouts just the same.
  54. If my comment to Leeann seemed somehow personal, let me apologize in advance to Leeann, whom I don’t know at all, although as I have said, Leeann seems perfectly capable of speaking for herself if she was offended. My general question to Leeann or to anyone in the Mormon Church centers around the key question in this piece–how can Mormons be offended that they have been rejected by this other church when the Mormon Church was a huge player in the case of Dale v NJ which was the case in which the USSC decided that the Scouts could exclude homosexuals. In fact, I think the court decided correctly–although I disagree with the Scouts’ discrimination policy, I agree with the court’s finding that under the Constitution’s guarantee of freedom of association, the Scouts or any other private organization has a right to exclude whom they will. I may think it hateful nonsense, but they should have that right. Likewise, I agree with the Constitution’s guarantee of religious freedom found in the first amendment, which guarantee’s free religious expression. Again, I may find a particular religion’s teachings (like Mormonism) to be onerous and hateful, but I agree with the Constitution’s guarantee of religious freedom. At the same time, I am likewise free to reject religion, and to declare it hateful nonsense if that is what I believe. My beef with the Mormon Church and with those who believe in and participate in it, is the claim that you believe that you are the custodians of ‘the truth’ and are the ‘true Church’ and yet you seem obsessed with homosexuals and excluding them in ways which I find hateful and not centered in any way in any teaching of Christ that I am familiar with. If anyone can show me anything in the teachings of Jesus that justifies your hateful and exclusionary policies regarding gay people, then I am all ears. The Mormon Church was instrumental in making sure the Scouts could exclude homosexuals–I have a hard time understanding your umbrage that someone in the Scouts wants to exclude you. Seems hypocritical to me. For the record, I am quite sure that none of my 3 boys would have any interest in Scouting. I love all the Scouting stuff, camping, badges, everything, but my boy’s prefer surfing and paintball and I am sure would find Scouting ‘boring’. I am the one who would love to be able to participate in Scouting with my kids, and I am deeply offended that the Scouts see fit to exclude me as unworthy, and that the chief cheerleader for that discrimination is the Mormon Church. The Scouts have that right, and so do you, but I find it hateful and discriminatory, and not connected in any way to anything Jesus said. This is only the tip of the iceberg–Mormons seem not to understand that their continued efforts to endear themselves to the religious right by hating gay people will never change the religious right’s hatred of you–they hate you only slightly less than they hate gay people. But I am sure that is another thread entirely.
  55. Ex – I think the shock come from the fact that the BSA is hurting for members and for well-trained adult leaders. It is kind of a surprise to have a well-trained adult leader be refused the opportunity to serve in a specific troop’s organisation because they (the prospective leaders) don’t adhere to a specific definition of Christianity. It is entirely within the rights of that organisation to determine who can and cannot be leaders, but it seems surprisingly, particularly given the track record of working with the BSA.
    There is a private school in my community for Evangelicals. They have a very specific list of criteria for both students and teachers. Both students and teachers must avow that they believe in the statement of faith that this school uses. It is well-written and it lets everyone know exactly what is required. I know that I would not be qualified to teach there because of the first two points on their statement of faith. I appreciate this because they are a private school and they have the right to do so.
    The issues of Mormonism and homosexuality are incredibly far removed from this topic, ExMoHoDon. I will say only one thing in response to your comments, though. While the LDS church was a participant in the lawsuit, the chief player in the Boy Scouts of America requiring all of its members to be heterosexual and to express a faith in God (however they wish to express that faith) is the Boy Scouts of America.
  56. Alex — It’s a bit off-topic (OK, more than a bit), but I’m curious enough to ask: Do you have a beef with the school’s second article of faith, or is it that the school would have a beef with your beliefs on the nature of the Godhead/Trinity? Although the wording strikes me as a bit modalistic, I could interpret the words in a way that would be consistent with what I believe. Just wondering.
  57. Ex, I have zero beef with any Protestant church that feels that Mormons are inappropriate for its scouting program. That’s their prerogative, and if they want to roll that way, fine by me.
    If I had any beef with anything they said, it would be them gratuitously calling us “not Christian.” But that’s a tangential issue.
    But they’re free to exclude whoever they want as far as I’m concerned.
  58. Paul consistently teaches against homosexuality throughout the Epistles. He was an Apostle in Christ’s Church during NT times.
    As for the Mormon Church, I’ve always been taught to “love the sinner, but not the sin,”, and OT and NT prophets have always taught that homosexuality is a sin.
    I agree with your comment that the BSA can choose whomever they wish as leaders; they have that Constitutional right, but I also agree with Seth that you took it out on me.
    I also believe that the Mormon Church can choose whomever thay wish as leaders; neither the Mormon Church nor the BSA are public organizations in the sense that a public school is.
    My major point earlier, and the one I really wanted to emphasize is that the truly Christian behavior that I honored was that of the dedicated leaders who reached out to my sons.
  59. Eric – I don’t have a beef with the 2nd article, but I think they would have a beef with my understanding of the nature of the Godhead. Also, belief in many books of holy writ goes quite a bit against their 1st article.
  60. Thanks for the info Leeann. Since you appear to be able to determine who is a sinner and who isn’t, am I mistaken in my understanding that everyone has sin, or is it just homosexuals? Is that why it is OK to exclude homosexuals, because they are sinners? While we agree that the BSA has a Constitutional right to discriminate, where is the justification for excluding anyone, if you adhere to Christ’s teachings? Where did Christ command or justify excluding anyone?
  61. BTW Leeann, since you adhere to Christian principles, and you honor the ‘Christian behavior’ demonstrated towards your sons, how would you demonstrate ‘Christian behavior’ towards my 3 sons, or do they deserve less than your sons because I am a ‘sinner’?
  62. I was raised in a Latter-day Saint home where my parents didn’t hold temple recommends because they both smoked and drank coffee. They knew that it was their inability to follow the Word of Wisdom that kept them from renewing their temple covenants.
    In the same sense, when someone is not following the teachings regarding chastity, they cannot be in full fellowship. I am not perfect, and do not claim to be; I have had my own problems in the past, and was at one time unable to be in full fellowship. I decided to bring my life into accordance with Gospel teachings so that I can have those blessings in my life.
  63. I was very personal in my last comment because I want you to know where I am coming from. I believe that if Scout leaders treat your sons differently because of your lifestyle, then they need to counsel with proper Church authorities. We need to be first, and foremost, charitable. I have heard people comment in Testimony meetings that they felt uncomfortable coming back to Church because they felt everyone knew what they have done. Normally, and thankfully, that’s usually not the case! I have a young friend who recently became pregnant. So few people knew the circumstances of her situation that people asked her if she was moving away when she was released from her calling.
    As for what this has to do with your sons’ attitude toward Scouting: it has more to do with your attitude toward the BSA and scouting than it has to do with others’ attitude toward you.
  64. Let’s say that we are free to choose our own actions, but we aren’t allowed to choose the consequences of our actions. If we pull out of a parking lot without looking, we face the consequence of damaging our vehicle and someone else’s. If we persecute others, we face the consequence of damaging other’s feelings and damaging our own souls as well. I’m sorry if any of my comments were offensive; I didn’t intend them to be. All I intended to begin with was kind of a thank you to several good people who have served my family.
  65. Leeanne
    As far as I am concerned, you certainly don’t need to apologize. I don’t believe for a minute you intended to be offensive. I just think the issues involved in this thread a big ones, and very complex. They affect me differently than they affect you, and I take them very personally, but it is obvious to me that you meant no offense. Maybe you are like me–just trying to do the best you can.
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