Dialogue slump

These past few weeks have brought on a slump in my satisfaction with interfaith dialogue. I haven’t been my best. I’ve been more combative than I needed to be. Conversations I’ve witnessed or participated in have had more to do with arguing than understanding, and I feel like I’ve seen a higher than usual number of comments from Latter-day Saints disparaging evangelical Christianity or evangelical Christian beliefs and practices. All religions have their trolls who treat other religions poorly, and some of these comments have been from people I don’t know very well, so for all I know I’ve simply had bad luck with running into Mormonism’s less tactful faction. Then again, some have been from people who do know me.
I’m unable to avoid asking the question of how ineffective I must be as an ambassador of my religion if Mormons still have such hostile feelings about us after interacting with me. Last year, an LDS apologist who was saying some very derogatory things about evangelical Christians—painting us all in a negative light with a very broad brush—rebuffed me and my counter-examples of good evangelical Christian behavior by saying, “A few hands waved in friendship does not obviate a thousand spears thrown.” At the time, I thought the person who said it was a jerk, and I still think that much.  But now I’m starting to wonder if he wasn’t a jerk with a point.
I need to be honest that I myself have often failed to keep the standard which I’m now complaining that others have missed. I have genuine, heartfelt concerns for the LDS people and genuine disagreements with the church, but the lines can so easily become blurred so that my attitude transforms into one of scorn and contention, and on top of that, the truth about me is that I ♥ a good fight. I enjoy trolling people and I enjoy making caustic, condescending comments about inferior arguments. It’s so easy for me to become embroiled in making a show of how silly my rival is being and not think of the pain I may be causing sincere adherents of that belief system. To the people I’ve hurt, I just need to say that I’m sorry.
All that said, I’ve decided that this Christmas season I’d like to blog about experiences in my life that have been significant to me as an evangelical Christian. In other words, I’m going to take a break from blogging with an interfaith audience in mind and just treat this as an evangelical Christian blog. That isn’t to say that my posts won’t be interesting to people of other faiths; I hope that they will be. I also hope that in doing this I’ll be able to step back, take a deep breath and return to interfaith blogging in January or February with new energy.
I’ll pick up again on my “Can God Give Birth?” series eventually.

Comments

Dialogue slump — 21 Comments

  1. Jack,
    Don’t despair too much. You are making inroads. You definitely have my respect. I was baptized when I was twelve and when I was about sixteen, my coworker (who I respected and we were good friends) constantly jabbed me about my faith. My father was an anti-Mormon Southern Baptist (my parents divorced before we became Mormons). I faced constant pressure from Evangelical sources over my faith. It takes a good amount of respectful dialog before such wounds are healed.
  2. Ironic. For my first post on FMH (as a perma), I’m composing a post about my frustration with interfaith dialogue and the tendency we have as humans to resort to steretypes, prejudice, tribalism, and ethnocentrism. It’s really been getting me down lately.
    (not referring at all to you; I don’t think I follow the forums and conversations where you feel that you’ve fallen short. In every situation of which I’m aware, I think you’ve been very sensitive and respectful of religious differences. I’m referring to many others, both on the big stage and in my personal life, those on all sides of the issues)
  3. Dan, I appreciate hearing that. I really do.
    Wow Derek, that is a strange coincidence. Maybe it’s something in the water. Has everyone checked their drinking water lately? Somebody seems to have slipped some “being a butthead towards people of other faiths” powder into it.
  4. Jack, After taking a breather, I hope you get back to your personal ministry of interfaith dialogue between Evangelicals and LDS. It’s needed.
    My first serious foray into Christianity was with Evangelical and Pentecostal churches. I fell out of that, and 10 years later joined the LDS church. I sincerely believe that the Evangelicals/Pentecostals “prepped” me for Mormonism. They taught me a spiritual side of Christianity that mainstream Protestants either ignore or deny. It was they who taught me about personal revelation (under the overall heading of spiritual gifts) that was the key for me to discover the truth about what the LDS teach.
    I was an example of President Hinckley’s dictum “Bring all the truth you have, and we’ll add to it.”
    You’re right about the examples of Mormons-behaving-badly. I didn’t realize the depth of Mormon bigotry and arrogance until I went on a full-time mission. I joined the church in the midwest, and assumed all Mormons were like the ones in the wards I attended. I was astounded at the arrogance I encountered at the MTC, both among the missionaries and especially the leadership (branch presidents). (Though I later learned that most of what I saw among the BPs was more of a unique BYU/Provo thing than a Utah or Mormon thing.)
    Out in the missions, where missionaries don’t have constant adult supervision, I observed even more of the arrogance and bigotry among the missionaries.
    Please keep on reminding the jerk-face LDS apologists (not that all LDS apologists are jerks, but I know at least one who is), that if they are going to consider Evangelicals as the Lamanites, bound by false traditions of their fathers, then their (the apologist’s) duty is to educate them, not return reviling for reviling.
    I also get very annoyed at LDS victimology which seems to equate social snubs and verbal barbs from Baptists and Evangelicals as being the equivalent of the Missouri persecutions. Hey, I’m Jewish on my dad’s side. We have been persecuted much more recently, and far more severely than what the Saints were in Missouri or Nauvoo.
    If someone wants to tell me about their 6th great grandparent fleeing Missouri, I’d like to tell him about seeing the numbers tatooed on my 2nd cousin’s forearm as he wore a short-sleeved shirt in hot southern Florida.
    In my eyes, modern LDS have little to no standing as a persecuted minority.
    You yourself are aware of some of the false traditional beliefs among Evangelicals as pertaining to what they think the LDS believe. And you know how those false Evangelical beliefs about what Mormons believe mainly come from shoddy research by a few people to whom undue confidence and reliance has been given. A local pastor presents an “outside expert on Mormonism”, and the congregation takes what the “expert” says at face value because he was recommended by the pastor who in turn was relying on another 3rd party recommendation. And precious few go fact-checking to see if the “expert” gave an accurate portrayal of LDS beliefs.
    You likely understand the false and twisted accusations of “The Godmakers” movie. And you know exactly the proper context or resolution of the “Satan as Jesus’ brother” epithet.
    I’m glad you’ve been making yourself heard. I hope you taught some of those arrogant bastards at BYU (not that all who teach or attended BYU are arrogant bastards, but I sure met a few 25 years ago) some needed information.
    And, as long as you’re also willing to educate your Evangelical brothers and sisters on what Mormons really believe, and explain how the twisted versions got out there into Evangelical circles, then please, by all means go on calling out the arrogant jerk-face LDS apologists (again, I’m not saying all LDS apologists are jerk-faces, just some.)
    And, more importantly than both of those, please, please, please point out to both sides those key things that are common between Evangelicals and LDS, specifically those things which also differentiate both of our groups from mainstream Protestantism.
  5. Bookslinger
    I also get very annoyed at LDS victimology which seems to equate social snubs and verbal barbs from Baptists and Evangelicals as being the equivalent of the Missouri persecutions.
    And all talk of the Missouri persecutions tend to ignore the role which the LDS communities there played in bringing on that persecution…
    Personally, I get really tired of the persecution complex exhibited by very vocal segments throughout Christianity and the LDS faith. Any sort of critical analysis which does not comport exactly with their/our own dogma is “persecution.” Any concepts contrary to their/our dogma is reflexively denounced as a war on values/family/religion. We all need to get over our persecution complexes and actually engage with the wide diversity of religious thought in our society. This smug tribalism doesn’t serve to help either ourselves or others.
  6. Jack – with your history, you have a right to some trolling now and then.
    Also, the dialogue and cheek turning really does pay off. My first 100 experiences with EV’s were negative. It only took a handful of respectful/loving/Christ-like individuals to change my views. Now I actually envy various aspects of Evangelicalism and really look forward to having discussions with various brands of Christianity. Your apologist friend is wrong.
  8. #5 Bookslinger ~ I don’t really care for the persecution complexes I sometimes encounter, either. Anytime somebody wants to go off to me about the early LDS church persecutions and how that’s somehow relevant to the discussion at hand, I’m happy to send them some articles on the persecutions that are happening in the Christian world today. Right now.
    I can’t say I knew a lot of arrogant bastards at BYU. I mean, I guess so, but probably not more than I’d meet anywhere else. Then again, I am pretty good at taking arrogant bastards down a peg, so maybe I didn’t notice.
    You’ll be happy to know that I actually have had a bit of influence for the better in guiding congregations on bringing in “experts” on Mormonism. But I can’t say more than that.
    #6 CJ ~ Thanks. Much appreciated.
    #7 Dave ~ Nah, you earned plenty of leeway with me, Dave. I have a lot of respect for you and your feelings on both of our faiths.
  9. Your break—focusing on personal experience for while—sounds like a good idea. Regardless of how harmless others perceive you, if you feel like you’ve perhaps taken one too many trips to the Jerk Store then you’re wise to step back.
    I think one of the challenges you will face in Jan or Feb when you return to interfaith blogging is determining what your (new? reformed? modified?) goal is. For example, I rarely blog to convince anyone of anything—I blog for my own selfish curiosity and learning. Whether I think someone is wrong or right is not really my concern—and so I’m okay letting that someone continue being wrong or right. You, on the other hand, have admitted to at least some degree of “evangelical drive” behind your blogging, thus you must be confrontational; you cannot be content to let heathens be heathens. Whether that turns you into Tim M. or {shudder} Aaron S. or something less confrontational than either is all a matter of degree….
  10. Jack: I guess we all “hit the wall”, like they call it in running, every so often in life. I know I’ve been getting weary of my Job hunting without success, AND my shale gas drilling activism, where I find gas industry “shills” claiming over & over ridiculous things, like the very toxic chemical benzene is only as dangerous as laundry soap, or Formula 409, both blatant lies, or ignorance, of the facts. They make many anti-Mormons look little league in ignoring what the other side is saying.
    Yes, the LDS have been persecuted & hurt, but, like others said, it’s been nothing on the scale of the Jewish Holocaust, or the Reformation wars.
    I know you disagree with LDS Theology, but you have sense to discard the really off the wall types of things being said about the LDS. And, I respect that you are able to discern that.
    The Advent threads remind me about the 4 candle powered Angel bell music thing my father picked up in Sweden. Now I suspect why it had 4 candles.
    I’ve tried not to be too caustic with you, I save that for my gas drilling or pipeline safety work, where often the clueless, or outright deceivers, have too much power. Cutting corners on safety or the environment to make extra $$$ burns me. That subject is very cut & dried compared to Theology.
    I’m afraid you’ll find jerks in virtually anything you do. I think that’s just a fact of mortality.
    Sorry if I’m venting about my recent frustrations of life lately too much. But, I think I know where you are coming from! And, I appreciate the other comments here so far. fMh had one trouble maker there lately, where I was going to suggest the dis-emvowelment (sp?) punishment, like the one you gave that one guy a few months ago. It’s kind of funny to see someone rant in gibberish.
    BTW, I like your new profile picture better than the old one.
  11. Jack, you’d be right to point up the persecutions Christians experience today, right now.
    BYU Independent Study once completely lost a 3-hour essay final test, and were bemused that I’d insist that since I took it, and the proctor saw that, and mailed it in, that I shouldn’t be held accountable for its loss, and that the grade should be computed on all the other coursework submitted.
    Once push came to shove and it was either “you call the department head and get this waived or I’ll call the President’s office and he’ll get it waived for you,” they up and found the test, mislaid in the mail room all that time.
    I have too many anecdotes like that to excuse BYU from the foibles and failures of any large University. However, once IS discovered things, they made it right, so there is also that to consider.
    Jack, we butt heads from time to time, but you shouldn’t be discouraged from explaining to anyone the hope that is in you. So, y’know, why not spend some time on that as well as interfaith dialogue, and let the Spirit guide the subject matter?
  12. When I read complaints about current persecution (and I’m speaking to both evangelicals and Mormons here, but especially the latter), my only response can be: “You need to find out a little bit more about what’s going on in the world.”
    True, I find offensive the anti-Mormon comments I read in mainstream web sites, comments that would be deleted if similar sentiments were expressed toward Jews, for example, and certain responses to Proposition 8 were disturbing, but that’s nothing compared to what happens to Christians today in some Muslim countries or in China. And even with constitutional protections, life isn’t always easy in the U.S. for adherents of some minority faiths.
    Worldwide, Mormons are persecuted less than other Christians, partly because of the stance we take on government authority. And in the U.S.? While Mitt Romney was criticized by his faith, I’m not sure he was the subject of any more derision on that score than Sarah Palin has been.
    And as far as the interfaith dialogue goes, Jack, I think you’re in a unique position to make some difference. I’m not sure how or in what forum, but I do hope you continue to contribute to the discussion.
  13. Jack, don’t feel too bad. I can see a lot of good your writings have made. I respect your thoughts and ideas and am thankful for the perspective you’ve been able to give me.
  14. Jack, I’ve thought about dropping the dialogue-beat in favor of getting back into the bloggernacle on occasion. Even told myself a few times I was going to do it.
    Never happened. I always get sucked back in.
    Dang, I wish I could quit you guys.
  15. #9 BFF ~ Are you worried about me turning out more like Tim and/or Aaron S.? Would that necessarily be a bad thing? I’m honestly asking here; I care about what you think.
    #14 Seth ~ Can’t get enough of your Bible-thumping, guitar-playing, blue-jeans-wearing evangelical friends? Don’t be shy, you can always come back for more.
    Everyone else ~ Thank you for your feedback. I really do value the opinion of every person who’s commented here. For the record, I’m probably not taking a break from the interfaith circuit altogether. I’ve already got an interfaith discussion post commitment with another blogger and an idea for a possible post at LDS & Evangelical Conversations. I’ll probably still comment on some other blogs. I just don’t know how in-depth my comments will be.
    I’ve been reading a book called Jesus Girls: True Tales of Growing Up Female and Evangelicaland so far it has been nothing short of excellent. I’ll be reviewing it later this week and (unless I haven’t got to the book’s weak parts yet) giving it a highly recommended rating. It’s really stoked my passion for creative writing and my desire to talk about my faith in innovative ways, free from the old “I was a sinner, Jesus saved me, now life is better” formula that is so often employed by evangelicals.
    Once upon a time I was a good enough creative writer to win contests. So I’m hoping I can recapture that energy and it will be a real treat.
  16. BFF: I think that currently and in the recent past you’ve been less confrontational than Tim but more than me. While I think Tim is great, it would be neither good nor bad if you were more like him (in blogging/dialogue)—it would just be a choice to be more confrontational than you are now. Aaron S’s approach, on the other hand, is so hell-bent on confrontation that it sacrifices honesty and charity, so it would be a bad thing to go that far. But no, I’m not worried that you would ever go that far; I just brought it up to mark the far end of the spectrum.
  17. When you’ve reached this point, is when you need to take a breather.
    And, my apologies for the strong language and unkind feelings towards certain parties in my previous comments. I still have some unresolved issues.
  18. Jack:
    Please, please don’t despair. I think by its very nature this will always be a difficult arena to be in and I think it takes more love, faith and patience that most any other area of communication. If you, and others like you, give up then the fringe elements win. Do we really want those who declare that “a vote for Mitt is a vote for Satan” or those who label anyone else with the slightest critique as “anti-Mormon” to by default become the public face of this conversation?
    I worry that those of us who value your input have been too silent letting the crass and defensive become the more prominent voice. I will try to do more to mitigate that. In my own case I know of many people, like myself, who have struggled with what to do after a crisis of faith. I fear if not for your input the result would be one of a complete loss of belief and/or faith. As difficult as it might be to remain positive I hope you are aware of the positive impact your words have – almost to the point of being far more vital and constructive than all of those who express their love for Mormons combined
  19. I was on a message board the other day. It was a conservative site and there is a religion forum. There are some people who constantly post articles about stupid things Mormons do and then they make a lot of hoopla about it.
    I have tried to point out to them that traditional/biblical Christians are doing the same things, but I just get rebuff and told that I’m the spawn of Satan. Since I have ADHD, it’s kind of hard to disagree with that.
    So, a co-worker, who is agnostic, but once believed in Christ, asked me to create a thread about how would a Christian go about helping an agnostic find Christ.
    So I sent up a little scenario stating that in the thread, I was going to pretend I was agnostic, but being upfront that in real life I am Mormon. I said that as this agnostic, I was fairly well read in different religions and philosophies, but I just felt something was lacking.
    I said that I had a neighbor who always seemed rather happy and was Christian, so I asked my neighbor about why he was so happy.
    I asked what would a traditional Christian do to help this person find that happiness, remembering that this person is an agnostic and thinks that the existence of God is improvable and doesn’t accept the Bible as the word of God. I said that if they stated something to be fact or the absolute truth, that I was going to ask all sorts of “why” questions.
    I also said that I was thinking about joining some religion, Christian or non-Christian, but I didn’t know if there was a God, gods, or nothing out there. I didn’t accept the Bible to be the word of God, but I had read it along with many other scriptures of other religions. I also said that I had prayed about it, but hadn’t received an answer.
    I also said that I wasn’t going to talk about Mormonism in the thread.
    There were several types of reactions I got to this post.
    1. There were some people, a vast minority, who realized that there is no way to make somebody have you faith, that the person has to find their own. They said that all they could do was to tell the person what they believe and why they believed it, then they would tell the person to read the Bible and to pray about it. They would also be willing to try to answer any of the questions the agnostic had to the best of their ability, realizing that they probably couldn’t answer all or even most of them. I haven’t figured out any other way better than this and agreed with them. Seems like a Mormon and several traditional Christians can agree on something very important.
    2. There were those who complained that I was just being hardheaded by asking so many “why” questions to their answers. The questions I think that bothered them most was “Why should I accept the Bible?” “Well, because it’s the word of God and is the truth.” “But I don’t believe that. What can I do to know if it is the word of God.” “Just accept it, because I did it that way.”
    This type of people are very frustrating. They think that just because they believe something, then it has to be true and that everybody should be able to see the obviousness of that truth. They think life is too simple sometimes.
    I tried explaining that to them, that as an agnostic, I’m not going to just accept something because it’s in the Bible and even if it is in the Bible, I would probably understand it very differently. I was then informed that the Bible is easy to read and understand.
    3. Then there were those who knew that I was Mormon and couldn’t understand why I was pretending to be an agnostic. I kept referring them to the OP, but it generally didn’t do any good.
    4. My favorite were those who knew I was Mormon and kept plastering cut and pasted anti-Mormon material whenever they got the chance. When they started doing this initially, I tried to explain that this thread had nothing to do with Mormonism, but they just accused me of trying to push my Mormon agenda in some sneaky way and then they would rebuff me for not responding to the accusations. I have learnt a long time ago, that it’s useless to respond most of the time to these type of people. They only want to fight.
    5. Then there were those who said that they didn’t know how to respond to the agnostic, that this was something they had to think about. These people usually just sent me an email. These are the type of people I appreciate a lot, probably even more than the first group. One of them email me and said that in order for us to strengthen our beliefs in Christ, we needed to examine and question them all the time and not just some shallow examination or questioning and that during these times, we need to read the scriptures and talk to God often.
    My co-worker, the agnostic, said after reading most of the thread that he really wanted to have the faith he use to have, but it just wasn’t there. He said that it was the hypocrites and evilness he saw in the people around him in the churches he went to that destroyed his faith. He said that he shouldn’t judge the truth by the actions of the believers, but it is what it is.
    He said that he wished there were more of the first and last groups and fewer of those who sought to destroy and confront in the name of Christ.
    I hope that he will be able to find that faith in Christ one day.
    Jack, you are the mostest bestest, but I have three cuter grandsons than any of your grandchild. (ha ha)
    Occasionally I like to poke somebody who is lecturing to me what I need to believe or not believe when they don’t know squat about what they are babbling about and that includes both Mormons and non-Mormons.
    I believe that one of the biggest reason why people feel the urge to attack the beliefs of others is usually a lack of self-confidence in ones own beliefs and a fear of others and like Yoda said “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
    I know I’m a little late joining this thread, I just had a two week vacation with one of my sons who lives in Australia, his wife, and child. I have never seen either of the last two. It was great. We all got together and now his wife, Emma, realizes why my son does what he does, why he is so loud and sooooo obnoxious sometimes.
    Jack, feliz Navidad y un propero ano neuvo a ti y tuyos.
    Love you – miss you – mean it.
  20. Lynn: That was a very good post. I see a good deal “You better believe it, because I say so!” in quite a number of religions.
    I’m noticed it recently at famous deceased Mormons. I asked about the Catholic Conditional Last Rites, will that force someone to be Catholic after death? And, what is the scriptural support for that ordinance? I just got more rants against Mormons, but nothing about the scriptural background of the Catholic Last Rites. It seemed to be a waste of my time there.
  21. #19 Lynn ~ I’m so sorry I missed your comment earlier. Thanks for stopping by this thread.
    I do often think that LDS people have it rough. It just seems like there are a lot of places you can go online and no matter what you want to discuss, people will want to attack the “Mormon” thing. I’m always sorry to see that.
    I miss you, too. I’m thinking of coming out to the FAIR / Sunstone Conferences this year. We’ll see.
Categories:

Related Post:



0 коментарі:

Post a Comment

ClobberBlog | Mormonism, Evangelical Christianity