Twenty things

For whatever reason, I’m getting a lot more traffic to my site these days than I normally do, which means I probably have some lurkers. Introduce yourselves, don’t be shy!
You know those annoying “twenty things” lists from Facebook? Here are twenty things about me you may or may not have known:
1. I’ve spilled the story of my first kiss in the comments over at By Common Consent. I hope it makes your stomach turn as much as it did mine.
2. I’m currently reading Heart-Shaped Box by Joe Hill (Stephen King’s son) and Grace, Faith and Free Will by Robert Picirilli. The former has been scary as hell so far and I’m still deciding what I think of the latter.
3. If I have a second daughter, I’m going to name her Evelyn Ivy Meyers. I have not decided on a name for a male child. My husband likes all these dumb boy’s names that I can’t stand, so I’m waiting until I’m actually pregnant with a male child to argue with him about it. I like Alastair for a first or middle name, and I don’t care how stupid you think that is; it’s a great name and I want to revive it.
4. I hate chick flicks and romantic comedies with few exceptions. While You Were Sleeping,Runaway Bride, and My Best Friend’s Wedding are all on my OK list.
5. It’s hard to choose favorites for movies, but my list includes Tremors, Memento, Primer,Unbreakable, The Matrix, The Silence of the Lambs, Frailty, and John Carpenter’s The Thing.
6. It’s also hard to choose favorite books, but my list includes several C.S. Lewis numbers (Till We Have Faces, Mere Christianity, That Hideous Strength), The Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia C. Wrede, Interstellar Pig by William Sleator, and You Are Special by Max Lucado.
7. I can’t even begin to choose favorite musicians and bands, my tastes are too eclectic. If I were stranded on a desert island and I could only bring two albums with me, I’d bring Siren Song of the Counter Culture by Rise Against and The Jennifer Knapp Collection [Limited Edition]
8. I almost got arrested for breaking & entering when I was 15. That’s all I’m going to tell you about it.
9. Television shows I like to watch which are still going include Dexter, Chuck and Dollhouse. I tune into Two and a Half Men, The Simpsons and Family Guy whenever, but I can’t say I make an effort to see every new episode. Television shows I like which have ended or been cancelled include Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Alias, Firefly, Journeyman, Pushing Daisies, Trigun, Samurai Champloo and Batman: The Animated Series (in all its incarnations).
10. When I was playing World of Warcraft, my main characters included: a level 60 human shadow priest (pre-BC), a level 70 night elf feral druid tank whom I eventually switched to resto (Burning Crusade), and a level 80 draenei unholy death knight tank (Wrath of the Lich King). Throughout Burning Crusade I also had a level 70 draenei shadow priest as a much-loved alt.
11. I don’t have any tattoos yet, but I really want one. I’m not going to tell you what I want to get though because every time I tell someone, they tell me that’s dumb and try to talk me out of it.
12. My favorite book in the Bible is Esther. My favorite book in the New Testament is 1 John.
13. My favorite Greek deity is Dionysus.
14. I have one half-brother, two brothers, one sister, three brothers-in-law, three sisters-in-law, three nieces, and another niece or a nephew on the way. (Just learned the gender of the incoming baby today! — 04/14/2009)
15. I love video games. Sandbox crime games like Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row are my favorites. I am amazingly good at driving games and would kick your ass if you played against me.
16. My natural haircolor is best described as “medium golden brown.” My father firmly believes it is blond. “Your haircolor is dirty dishwasher blond,” he tells me. “Yes Dad, also known as BROWN.” Then I started putting blond highlights into my hair and now he’s hopelessly thrown off.
17. The ring on my right hand which is shown in the header of this blog says הִנְנִי-שְׁלָחֵנִי, Hebrew for “Here I am, send me” (Isaiah 6:8; also referenced in the Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:27). Donald Parry and Erin Olsen in the Hebrew department at BYU wear similar rings.
18. I was baptized in the Nazarene church as an infant at the request of my maternal grandfather, Kenneth Godley. He passed away when I was 2. I was baptized again in the Nazarene church at my request when I was 12, this time by immersion.
19. I started to get into martial arts in college, but had to quit for lack of time. Someday I am going to finish my black belt.
20. The first church I formally became a member of was Sumner Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) when I was 17. I had my membership records transferred to Rock Canyon Assembly of God while I was in college, and technically that’s where they still are.
Well, there ya go. Feel free to share anything you want about yourself and introduce yourself.

Comments

Twenty things — 46 Comments

  1. we (he, who shall remain nameless) were just talking about you and how 1. you are my new blog crush and 2. you are everyone’s new blog crush.
    that should explain all the new hits to your site.
  2. did i say “new” enough times?
    i really hate commenting on other blogs. i always screw up and can’t edit.
    ps. i love it when you comment on fmh.
  4. PS — I also hate how most of these blogs lack comment-edit features.
    A few blogs have comment editing, at least for the first few minutes after you his “submit.” When Ivamp up the site later this year, I may see if there’s a way to allow comment editing.
  5. Fantastic list.
    I love first kiss stories. Yours was particularly amusing. I posted mine there, too, in case you’re interested.
    I’m also partial to Memento, Primer, The Matrix, Alias, and Pushing Daisies…though I must say I adore chick flicks and horror films scare the hell out of me.
    Not s’much a lurker, but you should know by now that whenever pop culture comes up I simply can’t resist throwing in my two cents. :)
  6. On #3, I thought you’d both settled on Bruce? Bruce Constantine Meyers… Am I imagining the Constantine part entirely? I could be. Either way, it would fit in with your Batman-themed brood!
  7. Wow, Laura. Your memory is good.
    Bruce Constantine was a possibility we discussed for a boy when I first got pregnant. I still like both of those names on their own, but I’m not sure I like them together anymore. Paul has fallen out of love with Bruce and my entire family hates it without exception, so that’s off the table now. Constantine is still possible, especially as a middle name.
    Paul is absolutely stuck on Azrael as a first name for a boy. AZRAEL! Yuck. Never. Gonna. Happen.
    Incidentally, both Azrael and Evelyn Ivy would fit our Batman theme…
  9. Is Rock Canyon Assembly of God in Provo? It must be close to the temple if so, right? I have an aunt that lives near Rock Canyon so I have been there a lot but have not seen that particular church.
    My favorite video games are Rock Band and really nothing else, but when I played other games I loved SSX Tricky and Prince of Persia.
    Wow, I didn’t think anyone but me liked Tremors. The Matrix is genius, of course. If I was going to pick chick flicks though (did I really just type that) I would pick Two Weeks notice, Notting Hill, and My Best Friend’s Girl. I’m not sure if that last one qualifies as a chick flick, but it’s super funny. Oh, I also really like Groundhog Day.
  10. Eric ~ I listed all of my naming pet peeves here (and they are legion). No overused names.
    I actually like Eric btw, though I think I prefer the “Erik” spelling, but either way it’s too common for me to consider using. My favorite names are unusual names, but not weird names. I prefer to think that my kid will be the only one in class with his or her name, but not because it’s a totally stupid name.
    MCQ ~ Rock Canyon Assembly of God used to meet on Canyon Road in Provo, I wouldn’t exactly call it close to the temple. But they sold that building a year or two before I left and began meeting in the movie theater at the Provo Towne Centre.
    Prince of Persia is one of the best video game series ever, at least until the 4th one. Groundhog Day is classic. Tremors is one of my favorite movies ever, I think I can quote the whole movie verbatim. It’s kind of a silly movie to have as a favorite, but I just think it’s the perfect horror comedy.
  11. BJM said:
    My husband likes all these dumb boy’s names that I can’t stand, so I’m waiting until I’m actually pregnant with a male child to argue with him about it. I like Alastair for a first or middle name …
    BJM also said:
    I prefer to think that my kid will be the only one in class with his or her name, but not because it’s a totally stupid name.
    I find those two statements contradictory.
    One of our children has a name that is unusual enough that nobody else we know, have known or likely ever will know has it. The other names are between common and unusual. I’m not sure what I would do if I had it to do over again; my wife would probably go for more unusual names, but I don’t know if I would. Our last child has the most common of all the names, and he does come across other kids who have it, so I’d probably change that one if I could go back in time.
  12. Hey, I do not think Alastair is a stupid name. It’s an old Scottish form of Alexander and it means “Defender of the People.” I think it sounds noble and powerful, and I really love how it kind of just rolls off your tongue when you say it. That said though, it is more likely middle name material for me than first name material.
    My father wanted to name me Bridget and my mother wanted to name me Jennifer. I was born in 1982, and Jennifer was the #1 most popular baby girl’s name in the country from 1970 to 1984. I sometimes was in classes growing up with three girls named Jennifer in it, so Jennifer would have been disastrous. The only reason I was named Bridget was because my father got to the birth certificate while my mom was still recovering from childbirth and he slapped Bridget onto it.
    In 1988, my sister Jennifer was born.
    The kids in my family were named Christopher, Bridget, Matthew, Steven and Jennifer. I was the only one with an unusual name. The kids in my husband’s family were named John, Paul, Adam, Alexander and Sarah. Nothing outside of the top 40, and John and Sarah were top 10 for their year of birth.
  13. IMPOSTER! The real Jack would have mentioned Jason Statham somewhere.
    “I am amazingly good at driving games”
    Yeah, I noticed this in your driving as you tried to follow me through the streets of Ballard.
  14. I did consider mentioning the fact that Jason Statham’s birthday is September 12, the anniversary of my mother’s death, but decided it would be too morbid.
    Following you through Ballard was just like one of my missions in Grand Theft Auto where I had to tail an erratic driver who could not make up his mind where he was going.
    On the way out, I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to quit following you when I did. I saw a sign that said go left for the I-5, and you were going straight, so I decided to follow the sign. It did get me to the I-5 though so it all worked out.
  15. Well, you’ve essentially called me out–I’ve been lurking on your site for several weeks. I found your site through Jeff Lindsay’s blog, when he mentioned it a few weeks ago and told everyone to go check it out.
    Aside from finding your history and blog topics to be quite interesting, something about you is very familiar to me. I think I may have met you before. We both went to BYU around the same time (I was there 2000-2003, then went on a mission, then came back in 2005 to finish up), and we had similar majors (I was a humanities major with a history emphasis). I probably had a class with you or saw you around the JKHB a lot–and I distinctly remember that article written about you in the DU. Why I remember that, I have absolutely no idea.
    Another thing we have in common: I’m also 6’0″. Maybe that’s why I remember you from BYU–I always notice other tall women. So all your comments about not being able to find pants long enough and whatnot? I totally understand.
    Anyway, just thought I’d say hi. I’m usually kinda hesitant to comment on blogs, especially ones of people I don’t know and where it seems like most of the commentators already know each other, but there you go. Maybe I’ll comment more often from now on. =)
  16. It’s hard to choose favorites for movies, but my list includes Tremors, Memento, Primer, Unbreakable, The Matrix, The Silence of the Lambs, Frailty, and John Carpenter’s The Thing.
    I knew there was a reason I liked you so much. :-) ..bruce..
  17. I been a lurker for a few weeks and am really curious about somethings. You felt God wanted you to go to BYU. Now now that you have been removed for a few years, have you come to any conclusions why He wanted you to go there.
    Also, do you think you have fused any unique Mormon beliefs into your Evangelical thoughts?
  18. Azrael is a great name for a boy–if you want him to get his butt kicked every day at recess. I’m actually with you on Alastair, because my Dad was a huge Alastair McLean fan, and I’ve always liked that name.
    My wife wears a rign I gave her that has a Hebrew inscription from the Song of Songs: “I am my beloved’s, and my beloved is mine,” or something like that. She also wears a chay (“life”) symbol as a necklace.
  20. Carina ~ I looked you up on Facebook and you look vaguely familiar to me. Maybe we did have a class in the good ol’ JKHB together, or passed each other a lot at least. I usually do notice other tall girls because I immediately wonder to myself who is taller. Thanks for introducing yourself. Feel free to comment whenever you like, I love getting comments.
    That DU article on me kind of shocked me because I did not expect them to print it on the front page—”hai gusy, der’s a non-mo’ here!” is apparently the most interesting thing going on at BYU during Spring Term. I had an 8 or 9 AM Hebrew class that morning and I remember picking up the paper at a newsstand and my jaw just dropped. All of my teachers brought it up in every class that I had and people were doing double-takes when they met me all day long. Way more attention than what I’m comfortable with.
    A reporter from the DU wanted to run an article on my interfaith marriage in September of 2004 and conducted interviews with me, my husband, and our friends for it, but it was scrapped at the last minute by an editor who felt that running the story would amount to encouraging marriage outside of the temple. Pretty sad commentary on tolerance at BYU.
    Then again, three weeks later my husband announced that he wanted a divorce and we legally separated, so maybe it was ultimately for the better.
    barnes ~ Now now that you have been removed for a few years, have you come to any conclusions why He wanted you to go there.
    It’s nice to meet you, barnes. There’s plenty of reasons for why God may have wanted me at BYU. I think that the biggest reason was so that I could be a positive example of evangelical Christianity in contrast to the negative anti-Mormon image of us that so many Latter-day Saints have in their minds. I’m also hoping that my status as a BYU alumna becomes a platform for further interfaith dialogue endeavors.
    Also, do you think you have fused any unique Mormon beliefs into your Evangelical thoughts?
    Are any LDS beliefs actually unique to Mormonism? I suppose eternal regression of Gods is, but technically belief in that is not required to be Mormon. Almost every other LDS doctrine has very close parallels in other religions. I do feel like I believe in a strain of evangelical Christianity which has a lot in comment with Mormonism. I’m reproducing here a comment that I made to someone in e-mail about this a few weeks ago concerning how my beliefs line up with Mormonism:
    Arminianism (with a very positive view of Open Theism): Much closer to LDS free will theology than Calvinism
    Charismatic: Mormons believe in gifts of the Spirit as well
    Believer’s Baptism: Even though I have family ties to paedobaptism, I firmly prefer believer’s baptism by submersion, just like the LDS church does
    Egalitarian: Here we part ways. I think the LDS gender system is essentially hard complementarian. Still, most people who leave Mormonism are unhappy with the way the church treats women, so I think I’m on solid ground here as far as appeal goes.
    Baptism/Gift of the Holy Spirit: I would like to see this more widely articulated in evangelical Christianity as a separate event from conversion, and I’d really love to see the laying on of hands practiced in conjunction with it. I don’t think the laying on of hands is necessary for it, but it’s hardly ever done by evangelicals today even though it was clearly done in the Bible.
    Priesthood Power & Authority: You know how some Mormon women will say that they hold the priesthood through their husbands, and some women will even talk about giving blessings by the power of their husband’s priesthood? That’s actually how I feel about Protestant priesthood authority and “the priesthood of all believers.” We hold Christ’s priesthood; in fact I think we hold it through the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so it’s technically not a priesthood of all believers. It’s open to all believers, but it comes from the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    Sanctification/Glorification/Deification: I’d really like to see a more open view towards deification. I think it can be incorporated into Protestant thought in conjunction with sanctification and glorification.
    Individual soteriological inclusivism: This will be a hard sell, but I do not like teaching that people are going to hell simply for having some things theologically wrong about God. Plus I think it provides an answer to the problem of those who have never heard the gospel.
    Brian ~ You make me proud.
  21. Thanks for the reply! These were sort of the unique Mormon beliefs that I had in mind.
    I was wondering of you were hybrid of Mormon and Evangelical thought, but I sounds like the answer is probably no.
    -Pre-mortal Existence, unembodied spirits waiting to take a physical body
    -Greater emphasis of Christ’s suffering for mankind occurring in the Garden of Gethsemane
    -Christ not only suffered for sins of all mankind, but all human maladies such as sickness and depression.
    -Family structures and marriages intact after the resurrection
    -Universal but graded salvation (Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telesial) rather than a binary Heaven and Hell.
    -Mankind being in the most literal sense offspring of God
    -Angels are not a different “species” but are either unembodied spirits waiting to be born, disembodied spirits who have died, or a resurrected spirits. All who have or will live on Earth
    -Lost tribes of Israel having visitations and records from a resurrected Savior rather than just an exclusive visit to Jews and the preeminent role of the tribe Ephraim in preparing for His second coming.
    -Proxy ordinances for those who have died without them.
    -Much greater eschatological emphasis on the Americas.
  22. Hello! I found myself here from Feminist Mormon Housewives, even though I am not Mormon, nor a housewife (Definitely a feminist. And technically a wife, as of last August, which is weird to call myself that.)
    Anyhow, I lurk on FmH because I enjoy reading the conversations about deep issues of faith from a feminist and woman-centered perspective. I myself am going through a period of unbelief and non-practice, though I was raised Unitarian Universalist and was very active an ELCA church in college (choosing to be baptized there.) I am immensely fascinated by the tensions which religious feminists face in their faith communities. So, I read a lot of other people’s blogs. It helps that I am nosy by profession – I’m a history graduate student.
    Thanks for the fascinating discussions and observations you’ve shared.
  23. Count me as another fan with a blog crush on BJM.
    4. I hate chick flicks and romantic comedies with few exceptions. ….
    5. It’s hard to choose favorites for movies, but my list includes Tremors, Memento, Primer, Unbreakable, The Matrix, The Silence of the Lambs, Frailty, and John Carpenter’s The Thing.
    Yikes. I would be willing to consider marrying outside the church for a woman like that.
  24. Evelyn Ivy? I think the Ivy name is making me wonder if you are going to Batman once more for inspiration.
    Someday id like to become a black belt too. I wonder if that will happen.
  26. Okay, sorry for taking a day to get back to these comments.
    sbbarnes ~ Let’s go over your list.
    Pre-mortal Existence ~ I don’t believe in a pre-existence, though for a very brief time in my life I did. I just don’t see enough evidence for it in the Bible. I’m leaning towards a traducianist view of the creation of the soul.
    Garden of Gethsemane ~ I don’t believe the atonement started in Gethsemane, though I do believe that in some sense Christ atoned for the sins of the world with His entire life.
    Christ not only suffered for sins of all mankind, but all human maladies such as sickness and depression. ~ I’ve never even heard of this and didn’t know it was an LDS teaching.
    Family structures and marriages intact after the resurrection ~ Not really. I do think that every believer becomes a literal part of the family of God through adoption and in that sense we’re all one big family sealed to one another, but I definitely don’t believe in family units meaning anything. Then again, isn’t the LDS ideal going to be that the entire human race will be connected through seals? Apart from my lack of belief in celestial marriage, is that really so different from what I believe? What exactly does it mean that the family unit will be intact in the LDS system, that you’ll have universes in the same cul de sac? :P
    Universal but graded salvation (Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telesial) rather than a binary Heaven and Hell ~ No. However, I do believe in different degrees of punishment and shame in hell and different rewards and honors in heaven. I’m working on a post on hell which will be done in the next day or two in which I’ll cover that.
    Mankind being in the most literal sense offspring of God ~ Not at all.
    Angels are not a different “species” but are either unembodied spirits waiting to be born, disembodied spirits who have died, or a resurrected spirits. All who have or will live on Earth ~ No, I don’t think angels ever have been or ever will be humans. And I think angels have wings because wings are AWESOME, damn it. :)
    Lost tribes of Israel having visitations and records from a resurrected Savior rather than just an exclusive visit to Jews and the preeminent role of the tribe Ephraim in preparing for His second coming. ~ Can’t say I believe in anything like this.
    Proxy ordinances for those who have died without them. ~ Nope, not at all. I’m not creeped out by temple work like I used to be, but I certainly haven’t warmed to it, and I don’t think anybody gets a chance after death (Hebrews 9:27).
    Much greater eschatological emphasis on the Americas. ~ Not really. I pretty much loathe all forms of Manifest Destiny.
    I hope that answers your questions.
    Quail ~ It’s nice to meet you. Hmm, not sure if I’m a religious feminist myself, I like to describe myself as “merrily sexist,” BUT I think I make arguments often enough which feminists would agree with. ;) Thanks for introducing yourself.
    Bookslinger ~ I would be willing to consider marrying outside the church for a woman like that.
    You know, I think that was kind of my husband’s line of thinking. Let me ask him… yup, he says that was about the size of it.
    BTW, what’s this I hear about you being ex-Mormon? You have some ‘splaining to do.
  27. Maybe it’s worth having another Mormon respond to sbbarnes ideas about Mormon belief, namely those that aren’t the belief of all Mormons.
    -Christ not only suffered for sins of all mankind, but all human maladies such as sickness and depression. This is a bit misleading how it is worded. Christ suffered for the sins of all, but there is no need to suffer for the sicknesses etc., as though sorrow and pain are somehow wicked. He suffered for our sins so that we wouldn’t have to; he experienced our sorrows so he would know how to comfort us. Alma 7:12, “…and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.” And also D&C 88:6, “he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things…”
    -Mankind being in the most literal sense offspring of God. This wrong in two ways:
    1) “in the most literal sense” to 99% of people would mean that God is the father of our physical bodies the way he was of Jesus’ body. That could only be true if we were all miraculously conceived as Jesus was—which I hope is clearly not Mormon belief—or if God is our earthly ancestor (i.e., God = Adam). The Adam-God theory was taught by some LDS, is still believed by a few LDS, but was also thoroughly and explicitly decried as heresy by President Kimball. ‘Nuff said.
    2) The other way to interpret “in the most literal sense” is speaking spiritually: God is the father of our spirits in that he sired them through some kind of spirit procreation process. While it is clear that most Mormons believe in some kind of tripartite existence (intelligence –> spirit –> body; where the first arrow is accomplished by Heavenly Parents and the second by earthly parents), my experience is that those same Mormons are split—or haven’t even considered—on what that procreative process might be. Also, there is a growing number of Mormons who reject the tripartite model in favor of a view of God being our Father in the sense that he adopted us: we always existed as spirits, and he took us under his wing. This latter view rejects the wording “most literal sense.”
  28. And Jack, I’d be interested in your views on the “revised Mormon beliefs” I wrote above. I’ll go ahead and assume that you still reject any kind of “child of God” doctrine—whether it’s how I spin it or how sbbarnes does—because both of our views rely on spirits that existed premortally. It’s your position on the other view I’m really interested in: how much of the human experience did Jesus experience?
  29. Brian, hmmmmmm…
    It was always my understanding of LDS doctrine that Jesus really did, in some special way, feel the pains and sicknesses of everyone in the Garden, the same way He felt the weight of our sins.
    ‘Cuz I remember having conversations with the Young Womenz growing up where we would say things like, “So did Jesus experience the pain of childbirth?” and then conclude that somehow, even though He didn’t have a uterus or nothin’, He did.
    That sounds a little ridiculous now as I type it, but it’s how I understood it. I’d expect I’m not the only one who thought/thinks that.
  30. Katie, I agree. See, you’re definitely not the only one!
    It seems to me that Brian is saying that Jesus didn’t suffer FOR our sicknesses and infirmities, but that He has felt the pain and sorrow that result from them.
    I believe that He knows what it’s like to be depressed, to have OCD, and somehow, to even go through childbirth. He understands the emotional distress of losing a loved one and can sympathize with us even when we something as small as fall off a bike and skin our knee. He’s felt it all–so when we’re in agony because a relationship ended, or when we don’t get that job we really wanted, He can understand that unique pain. That’s how I understand the scriptures in D&C where it says He descended below all things–He’s felt everything that any one person in humanity can have the possibility to feel.
    And that, to me, is incredible. Inconceivable, but absolutely incredible.
  31. BrianJ said:
    Also, there is a growing number of Mormons who reject the tripartite model in favor of a view of God being our Father in the sense that he adopted us: we always existed as spirits, and he took us under his wing.
    That’s new to me. Wouldn’t that contradict the Proclamation on the Family? Or are those who take that position saying that the “heavenly parents” mentioned in the Proclamation are someone other than Heavenly Father and his wife/wives? If that’s the case, that would be a novel interpretation I haven’t heard before.
  32. Brian, Carina, Katie ~ I’ve always taken great comfort in the fact that God became human and lived a human life. There was a fabulous quote on it that I read when I was teenager (though I can’t remember where now, I wish I could find it for you guys) about how, whatever our struggles and our pain and however difficult our lives are, God knows exactly what we’re going through because He did it Himself. There are some lyrics to a Christian ska song by the O.C. Supertones called “Wilderness” which touch on the subject:
    And God, do You really understand
    What it’s like to be a man?
    Have You ever felt the weight
    Of loving all the things You hate?
    Have You struggled, have You worried,
    How can You sympathize?
    That said, I’m not sure that I believe Christ literally felt the pain of every illness and physical type of agony there is all at once. I mean, what about other types of anguish? Did Gethsemane somehow instill in Him the pain I went through when my husband told me he was leaving me? When the doctors told me my daughter had a serious genetic disorder and the best she could ever hope to be was mentally average? When I was 9 and the police called us and told us they’d found my 11 year-old friend raped and murdered?
    I certainly believe God understands perfectly well how much those things hurt, but I’m not sure I believe it’s because He somehow literally experienced it in Gethsemane. I’m not opposed to the idea either, I’m open to it. It just seems to me that if you can mystically cram that into Gethsemane, there are other ways God can mystically empathize with it as well. I think I’m more inclined to believe that He understands those things because He made me and He’s always with me. I don’t know though, I’d have to give it some more thought.
  33. Katie “Awesome Blavatar” Langston: Carina is right about what I was trying to say. The way sbbarnes worded it, you’d think sorrow, hunger, or a sore throat are all bad things that need to be atoned for. I was merely responding to that possible (mis)reading of sbbarnes’ comment.
    ’m not sure I believe it’s because He somehow literally experienced it in Gethsemane. I’m not opposed to the idea either, I’m open to it. It just seems to me that if you can mystically cram that into Gethsemane, there are other ways God can mystically empathize
    I think one very straightforward way for God to empathize is through the Holy Ghost. I agree with Jack’s thinking that this empathy could, in principle, mystically happen anytime (or even multiple times, right?), but there is a good reason for it to happen during Christ’s ordeal of suffering (Gethsemane + cross): throwing in physical pains (and desires, etc.) presented Jesus with “worldly distractions” to all the spiritual work he was trying to accomplish. (I used the “scare quotes” because I don’t mean to say that sorrow (like the news of a friend being raped) is a distraction in the negative sense of the word.)
  34. Eric,
    Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.
    How does that contradict the idea of adoption into God’s “spirit family”?
  35. I believe that the “other half” of the atonement is to “pay” for the healing of all hurts, whether caused by sin, illness, accident, whatever.
    Consider person A sinning against, and causing injury to, person B. If person A repents, believes in the atonement, etc, he receives forgiveness, the atonement having “paid the price” for his sin, the Savior having suffered the punishment that would otherwise have been meted out (either in this life or the next or both) to person A.
    Without Christ “paying the price” (paying the spiritual bills so to speak) for the healing of person B, it would look to person B that person A was getting a “free ride,” and the only one who benefited from the atonement.
    Any and all spiritual damage that we receive to our personal spirit/soul will be all “fixed up” eventually, either in this life or the next. And all physical damage will be “fixed up” in the resurrection. Christ paid the price for all the “fixing up.” So much so, that we can be physically “super-fixed-up” in a resurrection. If I understand correctly, the suffering for all the wounds, illnesses, etc, is explained in Gospel Principles. It has also been mentioned in a conference talk or two in the past few years.
    So in the “sin transaction” between person A and person B, Christ covers both sides: He paid the price of the punishment for the sin of person A, and He paid the price for the (eventual) healing of person B.
    But, both person A and person B have to do something to effectuate Christ covering their respective sides of the A-B sin transaction. In order for person A to receive forgiveness, he has to repent, and accept that Christ paid for his sin. In order to receive healing, Person B has to forgive person A, and accept that Christ paid for his healing, AND that Christ paid for person A’s sin.
    Person B has to ‘accept the check’ that Christ wrote in blood on the cross (and in the garden) as payment for what happened to him.
    —
    One of my theories is that forgiveness on the part of person B (towards person A) is a learning experience for what is going to happen in future worlds. If person B goes on to exaltation and has spirit children, then as a heavenly parent, person B (and spouse) will have to “accept” the sacrifice/suffering of their first-born spirit son as paying the price for the sins of (and the healing of) all their other spirit children.
    If we can’t learn to forgive spirit brothers and sisters, how will we be able to forgive billions of spirit children?
    —-
    BJM: You didn’t know? You mean you didn’t go back and read all my old comments in the archives at Millennial Star, Times and Seasons, and Mormanity?
  36. Katie “Awesome Blavatar” Langston
    Thank you, Brian, thank you for noticing. :) It is my personal symbol of virtue. Jack was the one who came up with the idea to make it my avatar, though; I can’t take full credit.
    Okay, so are you guys are saying you think Jesus quite literally felt all our INDIVIDUAL pains, sicknesses, heartaches, etc.? Or just felt enough bad stuff that He completely and totally understands what we’re going through?
  37. The emphatic aspect of Christs atonement was touched upon in Holland’s talk during the last General Conference.
    “The loss of mortal support He had anticipated, but apparently He had not comprehended this. Had He not said to His disciples, “Behold, the hour . . . is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” and “The Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him”?17
    With all the conviction of my soul I testify that He did please His Father perfectly and that a perfect Father did not forsake His Son in that hour. Indeed, it is my personal belief that in all of Christ’s mortal ministry the Father may never have been closer to His Son than in these agonizing final moments of suffering. Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required; indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone.”
  38. Katie: Oh, I already know the origin of the blavatar. That only makes it all the more special. And if I were you I wouldn’t worry about sharing the credit with Jack. What, do you think that because you didn’t come up with it all by yourself that it is somehow like an apple that fell from the tree rather than one picked from the top branches?
    For me, the question of exactly what Christ experienced is a lot like asking exactly what omnipotent means: I do not believe that God is omnipotent in the full sense of the word; likewise with omniscience. What I do believe is that God is powerful enough to fulfill the promises that he makes. Thus, he can be fully trusted. I don’t know exactly what Jesus experienced as a mortal, but I’m confident that he experienced enough to understand what I mean when I can’t find the words to express myself in prayer—that’s good enough for me. As a side note, I’m not a big fan of a future-time-travel concept of God, and that would be necessary if in fact Christ experienced all of myspecific pains and sorrows (2000 years before they happened).
    Incidentally, we always talk about what Christ suffered, but it would all be rather meaningless if he didn’t also know our joys, excitement, happiness. He’d have no sense of perspective.
    All of this makes me more confident in the idea that the Holy Ghost “administered” the atonement—a thought which dovetails nicely with the Holy Ghost’s role in purifying us from sin (baptism by fire).
  39. What, do you think that because you didn’t come up with it all by yourself that it is somehow like an apple that fell from the tree rather than one picked from the top branches?
    Brian: well, you know what they say about how one bad apple ruins a barrel.
    I will leave it up to you to determine whether it is Jack or I who is the spoiled one.
    (Hint: it is most certainly Jack.) :P
  40. I am an atheist who loves fMh, although there were hard times after prop 8.
    I like your blog. I love the detail, the organization, the thoroughness; very satisfying!
    My husband birthday is September 12th.
    One of my best friends is super evangelical.
    The majority of my friends from California are feminist/atheist/secular.
    The majority of my friends here in Wyoming are not.
    I am also curious about bookslingers story.
  41. crazywomancreek ~ Thanks for introducing yourself. It’s nice to know more about you, and I hope we continue to run into each other at fMh.
    Mom died in the wee hours of the morning on September 12th, around 3 AM I think. I guess she was determined not to go out on September 11th.
  42. I am an LDS girl from Rexburg who married in the temple, divorced, and married the greatest man in the world. Who happens to be not Mormon. I have a PhD and roll my eyes every time someone references “women who know.”
    Thanks for sharing your stories and insights and letting us in on it.
  44. Thanks. :) The PhD is nice to finally have, but it sure does freak some of the church ladies out.
    My better half was raised Christmas Catholic, but doesn’t practice and is pretty wary of organized religion. He has taken the discussions to understand the LDS faith and comes to church with me on occasion. His biggest problem is the people (and the culturally dogmatic “beliefs”), and I can’t say I don’t feel the same way on some days.
    Btw, would you prefer I sign with my real name, or my fMh name (that1girl)?
  45. Nicole, that’s totally up to you. If you care about readers from fMh knowing you’re that1girl, you can switch. Otherwise I’d just stick with Nicole.
    Thanks for sharing with me about your husband.
  46. I’m one of your lurkers :) It was your post on fmh about Paul and women remaining silent in church that brought me to your blog (BTW, I completely agree with your views on Paul!) I happen to be Lutheran, not Mormon, but I have lots of friends who are LDS, and fmh is one of my favorite blogs.
    I like the name Alastair! I gave my daughters names that were a little different (but not strange)
    because I hated the thought of them being the third or fourth “Emily” or “Sara” in their classroom. My oldest is Aubrey and my youngest is Bailey.
    Everybody thought I was crazy when I decided on Aubrey, but now they all love it — it fits her perfectly!
    The Simpsons is one of my favorite shows too, but I don’t really have a choice because my last name is Simpson. Back when I was pregnant, I can’t tell you how many “funny” people asked me if I was going to name the baby Bart or Lisa. Got REALLY old after the hundredth time!
    Thanks for the great blog, and keep up the good work!
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