Everything that is wrong with complementarianism

A friend suggested that I make a list of my gender concerns for evangelical Christianity since I’ve done a post on Mormonism, so I’m going to do that. But first, let’s take a lighter look at what evangelical egalitarians are dealing with when they attempt to reason with the complementarian mindset. Prepare for some lulz.
This was posted by CBMW blogger Mike Seaver a year ago: “A Semi-Pragmatic, Less Theological Open Letter to Egalitarians.” It consists of 10 questions which were supposed to… reveal the errors of the egalitarian mindset, I guess? As you’ll see, it’s a list that kind of has the opposite effect. Plenty of good answers were offered by egalitarians on the blog at the time, but I’m gonna answer them myself just for fun.
1. If the Titanic accident were to happen again, would you desire 50% of the seats on the life boats to be left for men?
I would desire enough lifeboats for everyone, or better yet, a cooler-headed crew that wasn’t under pressure to cross the Atlantic Ocean as fast as possible and thus maintained a better look-out for icebergs.
2. If there is a robber who just broke into your house and you are married with children, would you want the man to go downstairs or the woman or would this be done depending on who had done it last time?
I really appreciate Dave Warnock’s answer to this one: “If male headship advocates keep suggesting dangerous and daft solutions to problems then we will all be safer if they go downstairs in this situation.”
My answer: I would want to escape along with my husband and children and call the police. If escape was impossible, I would want all of us to lock ourselves into one room and none of us go downstairs. If one of the children was sleeping downstairs and we could not reach him/her without confronting the robber, then I would likely let my husband go while I stayed upstairs with the other children—but only because he’s a second degree black belt with good weapons expertise who can handle himself in a fight, plus he’s stronger than I am. If all of the children were downstairs and we couldn’t get to them without confronting the robber, I would go with him to help him.
That’s just what I would want. Knowing my husband though, he would paint his face blue and barrel down the stairs before I could stop him screaming “FREEDOM!”
3. Would an egalitarian woman be offended at a man holding the door for her?
No. I get the door for other people (both men and women) all the time. Other people (both men and women) hold doors open for me all the time. It’s the polite thing to do if you reach the door first.
4. Do egalitarian parents allow their boys to play rough with the girls just like the boys play rough with other boys?
If the girls are up for it, why not? I never had a problem playing rough with the boys growing up; I thought it was a lot of fun. However, I don’t think any child (boy or girl) should be playing rough with any other child (boy or girl) unless both parties are okay with it.
For the record, I firmly intend to not allow my daughter to date boys until she has a black belt in a serious martial art.
5. Do egalitarian parents train their boys that it is okay for them to be “stay at home dads?” If so, does a lot of domestic training happen for these boys?
I plan to teach children of both gender to cook, clean up after themselves, take care of children and perform basic mending. Those are valuable life skills that are good to know whether you become a career person or a homemaker or something in between. I don’t plan to force children of either gender to learn “a lot” of domestic skills (whatever that means). They can express for themselves the interests they’d like to develop as they get older.
6. Do you feel that women boxers should be allowed to fight in the ring with men?
Nope. This sounds like the old fallacy that equality = same. It doesn’t. No serious egalitarian holds that men and women are the same, especially not physically. Men are almost always stronger than comparably sized women, so why pair them against each other in a physical contact sport?
If a man and a woman are both comfortable with such a match though, I say go for it.
7. Do egalitarian women desire to be protected by their guy (boyfriend, husband, father, etc.) or would they prefer to protect themselves?
I think every person, male or female, should learn basic self defense techniques. What guarantee do you have that there will be another person nearby to protect you when you need it?
On a side note, my husband is good with swords and I’m good with guns. Now that’s what I call “complementarianism.”
8. Does an egalitarian female “pastor” get a maternity leave from her preaching responsibilities?
I love it when complementarians act like asshats by putting the word pastor in quotation marks when referring to female pastors. Does our job for us.
In any case, of course female pastors get a maternity leave when they have children. IT’S THE LAW. And in case you’re wondering, I’m 100% in favor of fathers getting a paternity leave when there’s a new member of the family.
9. Does and egalitarian female “pastor” counsel men about pornography?
Does a complementarian male pastor counsel women about pornography? And yes, there are women who get addicted to pornography.
Personally, I think it’s a bad idea for a person from one gender to counsel a person from another gender on a sexual transgression. This is precisely why we need both male and female overseers.
10. Do egalitarian pastoral staffs go on pastoral retreats together? If so, how does that work with having guys and girls together? Do the spouses feel strange about this?
The men and women get separate hotel rooms and stay with only members of their own sex ormarried couples get their own private rooms. I’m having a hard time understanding why the spouses might feel strange about such arrangements.
So, what exactly was the point of this list again? Egalitarians are bad for wanting female pastors to have maternity leaves?
Yeah. I don’t get it either.

Comments

Everything that is wrong with complementarianism — 29 Comments

  1. re 2: Dave Warnock gets 10 points. Great response. This kind of hypothetical is the kind of question Chris Farley would ask his guests on The Chris Farley Show on SNL (curses on NBC for not making clips readily linkable!!).
    re 8: limited paternity leave for fathers.
    re 9 + 10: A male “pastor” can sit alone with a “female” churchgoer and counsel her “about” sex, but “a” bunch of female pastors “and” male pastors can’t be “trusted” to go on a retreat to”geth”er? (Sorry, but I had to throw in a little of #8 in there too.)
  2. Jack, you are a gem. Love this list.
    I have a bit of a problem with the maternity/paternity leave issue. While adding paternity leave is kind of an equalizer, I don’t really know how necessary it is for a guy to get time off so his wife’s episiotomy can heal and so she can breast feed the infant. And, as an employer, when one gender wants to have different rules for themselves, I think it puts women at a disadvantage. I don’t have a solution, but I think it’s a fair question.
    I also do think that females/males traveling together (even with separate sleeping quarters) is more problematic than, say, working together. Manageable, yes, but I don’t think it’s a nutty question to ask.
    As for men/women counseling opposite genders about sexual issues, I think you’re spot on.
    Anyway, loved the post.
  3. I haven’t finished reading this yet, but I must ask if “Mike Seaver” is really a not-so-subtle codename for Kirk Cameron?
  4. On a side note, my husband is good with swords and I’m good with guns. Now that’s what I call “complementarianism.”
    Now I wish I was good with swords, and could meet a girl good with guns. That’s definitely the type of marriage I want.
  5. Okay all done.
    Thank you for yet more confirmation on why I have always been and will always be egalitarian.
    Also, the attorneys in my office get maternity and paternity leave, and it seems to work pretty well. New fathers do take less time than new moms, but even those three to four weeks seem to keep the men and their families pretty happy.
  6. When I gave birth to Harley, Paul had recently been laid off a few weeks earlier. Having him at home for Harley’s birth turned out to be quite a blessing, especially since she was a cleft palate baby and couldn’t breast feed. Since she was bottle fed, he was able to help care for her entirely and didn’t have to hand her off to me for feedings. Really eased my recovery.
    So I’m all for paternity leaves. I don’t think they need a full 6-8 weeks since they aren’t recovering from a medical ordeal, but 2-3 weeks seems fair.
  7. When I first read the list of questions here, I thought they were a joke, a satire of some sort. But then I looked at the original source, and I found out they were serious questions. Kinda scary …
  8. Jack: I have no doubt—and plenty of experience—that paternity leave is great for the mom and family. What I question is the fairness of it. My co-workers have to pick up the slack in my absence while I get paid for their work. I haven’t really looked at the arguments for/against, but my gut tells me that paternity leave should be limited.
    (I don’t wanna create a threadjack, but it is an interesting topic….)
  9. Eric ~ Someday, when I’m a real historian with credentials, I’m going to compile an anthology of all the terribad, misogynist hard complementarian arguments of the last century. I’m already making a list. It will include such notables as “PROPHECY – YES! / TEACHING – NO!!” and “God would never speak through a woman because they have nasally, high-pitched, lemon meringue pie waitress voices so it’s impossible for a woman to sound authoritative.” And it will include an entire chapter on the things Mark Driscoll has taught about women.
    Because if comps won’t listen to reason, maybe they’ll listen to ridicule.
    Brian ~ Yeah, maybe someday I’ll blog about the issue of paternity leaves in more detail.
  10. Allison, post #2
    Husbands should have a short paternity leave to help their wives while they are healing. Also, it’s a good idea for the father to spend immediate quality time with the baby as well. A lot of healthy bonding is done in the first few weeks, bonding that ensures emotional stability for the baby. Actually, there are lots of reasons for husbands to stay home in the first couple weeks.
  11. Write that anthology! I will be the first one to read it.
    By the way, I know Mike Seaver is a good guy. But these questions don’t deal with the real issues that comps and egal disagree over.
  12. Perhaps the funniest aspect of the questions is that they were semi-serious and indicate a mindset that is out-of-touch with today’s reality, at least for most people.
  13. In any case, of course female pastors get a maternity leave when they have children. IT’S THE LAW. And in case you’re wondering, I’m 100% in favor of fathers getting a paternity leave when there’s a new member of the family.
    There is no federal or Constitutional requirement I know of that women are required to be given maternity leave, although state law may mndate it.
    However, as a matter of Constitutional Law, employers who give maternity leave to women are required to give the same amount of paternity leave to men. I wish people who did not know anything about the law would stop talking about it. They just sound dumb.
    And as far as boxing goes, I like the Battlestar Galactica episode where Starbuck and apollo beat the living crap out of each other in the boxing ring. It is pretty awesome. Well, everything about Batlestar Galactica is awesome. It is the best show ever made.
  14. I wish people who did not know anything about the law would stop talking about it. They just sound dumb.
    Oh come on, just because you took that “test” doesn’t mean you get to be snobby already. :)Anyway, I haven’t done family law, but I’m sure there is an equal protection claim to be made if one were so inclined.
    Also, at the OP, I think the Titanic question is monumentally stupid and I can’t believe people still think that’s a legitimate question with respect to the value of either gender.
  15. Kullervo ~ Does the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 not cut it?
    It does say it only applies to employers with 50 or more employees, so there may be some wiggle room for local congregations on that.
    Also, my comments on paternity leave had nothing to do with what current laws are; only what I’d theoretically be in favor of.
  16. I was going to say, I remember being a full-blown adult the year that law was passed, and how much the Republicans (well, Limbaugh) hated its passage, arguing the slippery slope.
    So… I’m pretty sure it’s the law. And no, since there is no “ERA” in the Constitution, I don’t think paternity leave is mandated unless a State mandates it.
    It’s still good policy, though; I usually took three to four paid days leave and my wife’s mother came to town for a month.
  17. BJM,
    wiki states that FAML provides “unpaid leave”. That is, you’re gone but you don’t get money for it. Not many couples can afford that.
    The FMLA provides unpaid, job-protected leave for up to 12 weeks a year:
  18. The reason that women get disability leave after having a baby is to recover. Maternity/paternity leave is on top of that, and need to be equal for men and women.
    Turns out I had Hazel a year too early–my firm increased the amount of parental leave from 2 weeks of paid leave to… 12! Dang it.
    re: “I also do think that females/males traveling together (even with separate sleeping quarters) is more problematic than, say, working together. Manageable, yes, but I don’t think it’s a nutty question to ask.” (Alison in post 2)
    Every year I go to training with my male and female colleagues. It’s typically a week that we all stay in a hotel and attend conferences and seminars. They have happy hours. It’s nothing that anyone has ever questioned as to being inappropriate–why would that be different than pastors?
  19. I wish people who did not know anything about the law would stop talking about it. They just sound dumb.
    For the record, I am calling Mike Seaver dumb here, not Jack or anyone else actually posting on this thread. Just wanted to clear that up.
    Yeah,, there’s the FMA, but like Jack pointed out, it only applies to employers of a certain size, and furthermore it only applies to employees who have been at the same job for over 12 months. In other words, there are huge numbers of American workers to whom it does not apply. Thus, there is no Federal law mandating parental leave across the board.
    On the other hand, the decision in Nevada Department of Human Resources v. Hibbs makes it pretty clear that parental leave policies that grant parental leave to women and not to men would violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.
    Rob, the Constitution grants a measure of gender equality even without the Equal Rights Amendment. The Equal Protection Clause does the job already. Granted, the court has applied an intermediate scrutiny standard to gender issues (which is lower than the heightened scrutiny applied to race, but considerably more than the minimal scrutiny applied to most things), but there is at least a fair amount of Constitutional protection for gender equality.
  22. PM, to partly answer your question: I’m not sure that if the ERA were to pass today it would make all that much legal difference. The trend in interpreting the equal-protection clause has been in the direction of eliminating gender distinctions for legal purposes. Also, a fair number of states (I don’t know how many, but Washington state is one of them) have interpreted their state constitutional equal-protection clauses explicitly to include gender and/or passed their own state-level ERAs. Also, today we have more statutory prohibitions on sex discrimination than we did back then, and certainly societal attitudes toward discrimination have changed.
    This is probably the main reason there hasn’t been much of a push in recent years for reconsideration of the ERA. Nearly all of its legal goals have been accomplished by other means.
  25. Kullervo, for those of us who don’t know (like myself), what would the ERA have done in addition to the equal protection clause?
    I mean, we will probably never know because the ERA is totally dead in the water, and we would have had to see how what the court would have done with it anyway. But I’m pretty sure that the ERA would have made no practical difference at all: the court would use different language to reach essentially the same results.
  26. Forgot about that list. Here are my answers from last year:
    1) When women are in positions of power you less often see the kind of arrogance that led to the titanic. But seats should be allocated in a rational fashion based on other criteria, sex would be low down on the list.
    2) When there is physical danger I take care of it. Children do a lot better with a dead father than a dead mother and I’m more likely to be successful at violence than my wife.
    3) Sometime yes, sometimes no. Generally not
    4) I don’t have boys, and my daughter has no desire to play rough. I’ve never discouraged her from rough housing however.
    5) By the time I I lived alone I already knew how to cook (did that at home all during growing up), clean (camp, home…) and do laundry (camp). No great challenge.
    6) Yes, but given the different distribution of fat they aren’t likely to beat men in the same weight class. But if they want to try sure.
    7) What does that even mean. Be more specific.
    (I assume 8-10 are in theory)
    8) Yes
    9) Yes, unless the man is too uncomfortable talking about masturbating in front of a woman.
    Same as a female shrink or medical doctor.
    10) Professionals have to travel in mixed sex groups all the time. Nothing specific about pastors.
  28. Yep I can believe it. Of course not having destroyed all the safety mechanism for our finance system put in place during the 30s and 40s would have even been better.
  29. That came out sounding wrong. What I didn’t mean to say safety mechanisms are better than women. What I meant was that safety mechanisms would have been more safe than women; though social equity reasons still make having women in those positions a very good thing.
    Anyway: Agreed women give safety from balance and it is good policy to encourage them. I also happen to like re-regulation.
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