Does the prophet have a “bat-phone to God”?

A few days ago, my husband stated his belief that Thomas Monson and the apostles are literally able to meet with Jesus Christ in the flesh in the Holy of Holies at the Salt Lake Temple. He does not believe that Monson can summon Christ whenever he wants, like his warlock pet in World of Warcraft or something, but he does believe that the current leaders can and do meet with Him regularly.
I’ve always regarded my husband’s views as fairly conservative compared to what I normally get from Mormons around the Bloggernacle. He’s not quite “Cain-is-Bigfoot” conservative, but he’s still pretty traditional. The fact that he broke from church doctrine to marry a non-member is quite the miracle to me.
In any case, I’m curious what my LDS regulars think. Do LDS prophets and apostles literally meet with God and/or Jesus Christ in the flesh? If they don’t, what is the purpose of the Holy of Holies at the Salt Lake Temple?
PS — I first heard the phrase “bat-phone to God” from Kaimi at T&S here. I don’t know enough about the Bloggernacle to know if he coined it or not.

Comments

Does the prophet have a “bat-phone to God”? — 17 Comments

  1. Whenever I have heard our modern-day apostles (or members of the first presidency) discuss how they receive revelation, they have generally talked about the “still small voice” and the sorts of things that are available to all of us.
    I do not recall anyone having claimed to have Jesus seen Jesus in the flesh. I’m not saying that it hasn’t happened nor certainly that it can’t happen, I just have never heard of anyone making that claim for at least the last hundred years.
    I know nothing about the Holy of Holies in modern-day usage, although that I have heard that the president of the church (and maybe others) go there sometimes to pray.
    In other words, I’m quite ignorant when it comes to this topic.
  2. Two boring answers to your good questions: no idea and no idea.
    (And I don’t think anyone other than the Apostles themselves has any idea about your first question)
  3. Do you think if I wrote a letter to Salt Lake City and asked, they’d actually tell me?
    “Dear President Uchtdorf:
    I’m writing to you because they tell me you’re the hot one.
    Have you ever seen Jesus Christ in person in the Holy of Holies at the Salt Lake Temple? Has President Monson seen Him?
    Please write back ASAP, I want to post your response to my blog.
    XOXOXO,
    -Jack Meyers”
    What do you think?
    And obviously this was a light-hearted question, so no worries if you don’t know / haven’t thought about it. I was kind of surprised that my husband believes so strongly in it.
  4. I obviously have no idea.
    Their is a historical record that Joseph Smith claimed to have seen the Father and the Son, and that Lorenzo Snow had seen the Savior in the Salt Lake Temple. (I believe these claims, but I specifically am talking about what the historical record records, not my belief). Other apostles have specifically said that they have not seen the Savior, and that it is not a pre-requisite for being an apostle (“there are some senses more sure than sight”). Other apostles have said that such questions are in poor taste (so don’t feel bad if they don’t address the question, but instead invite you to learn more about the Church from two representatives). Besides, as an evangelical, you can’t objectively know one way or the other, and you can’t trust a Mormon, so you’ll have to distrust no matter which answer he gives. It’s quite a conundrum you evangelicals live in…
    No one who knows about anything that goes on in the Holy of Holies would tell a bunch of “gentiles” (read: non-Mormons) about it. There are plenty of apostates who “know,” and usually inform everyone anonymously, because, you know, anonymity ensures accuracy. :) (Says the fully anonymous to everyone but but a few choice spirits).
    To answer your question re batphone, I certainly think a physical meeting is possible. I don’t think it’s necessary, and in the most recent doctrinal change, it didn’t happen with the whole 12.
    It does remind me of a joke I’ve heard before: now don’t get offended, it’s a joke. This joke abviously dates me as being older than 12.
    President Hinckley was visiting the pope in his office and saw a gold telephone. President Hinckley asked, “What’s that phone for.” The pope replied, “That’s my phone to talk to God.” “How much does it cost?” asked President Hinckley. “10,000$ a minute.” “oh.” A few months later the pope was visiting SLC and come to President Hinckley’s office, saw his gold phone and asked the same question, and found the phone had the same purpose. When the pope asked what the rate was, president Hinckley answered, “25 cents, it’s a local call.”
    Classic. Therefore, I know that telephones are true. Is this the joke that inspired the post. Because if so, it should be obvious that the batphone is used to make an appointment…
  5. My answer would be I don’t know.
    That said, I’ve always thought that at least some of the Apostles have seen our Savior in person. But there are others I feel doubtful about.
    I have heard some apostles (I think Henry B. Eyring was one of them) who stood up in Conference and basically said “I have had personal experiences since I was called which are too sacred to be spoken of. But I KNOW Jesus lives and is our Lord…”
    When I hear stuff like that – and I do hear it occasionally – I get the feeling that they just might have had the real deal.
    But then there’s the example of Boyd K. Packer.
    Just a quick interjection here. I’m not bagging on Packer because it seems to be stylish in the Mormon online community. I actually think that stuff is waaay overdone and I’ve never considered him a villain the way some seem to. I honestly like him, to tell the truth.
    But he gave a Conference address in the last couple of years (I think) that kind of caught my notice. He was talking about testimony and how it is obtained.
    Then he shared a personal story about when he was a junior member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He related that he was talking with a more senior member of the Quorum (it might have even been the Prophet) and he admitted that although he believed in the Restored Gospel and the LDS Church and though he loved it and all… he still wasn’t sure he “KNEW” that it was true.
    He relates how the senior Apostle smiled at him, looked him directly in the eye and said “you do know that it’s true.” Elder Packer then stated that he knew he was right, and has since come very-much to know that the Church is indeed true and that he is now fully confident of it.
    I think other listeners may have missed this little aside from Elder Packer, but my ears perked up at it. It seemed almost like an admission that he hadn’t actually met Christ – at least, not at that point in his ministry. Perhaps he has now. But it opened up a distinct possibility to me that some of our Apostles might not have.
    In light of Corinthians 12 (the stuff about diversity of spiritual gifts), it seems likely to me that this might well be the case.
  6. My answer is that Mormon thinking allows for anyone to see Jesus. This is based in the claims that he is a Personage with a “body of flesh and bone” (search for that in quotes at scriptures.lds.org; it’s in the D&C). Couple that with claims that God can do anything in His wisdom that He thinks He ought to, and you get the theoretical possibility.
    These days, though, a direct claim to a visitation is not generally made.
    Personally, I don’t believe that the President of the Church or the Twelve need regular personal visitations to take their directions from God, or that they’d share such experiences outside of a Temple context. If they know their jobs and how God works in the hearts of mankind, I think frequent personal visitations would be… inefficient.
  7. PC ~ Besides, as an evangelical, you can’t objectively know one way or the other, and you can’t trust a Mormon, so you’ll have to distrust no matter which answer he gives. It’s quite a conundrum you evangelicals live in…
    And I’m a jaded, cynical, mistrustful evangelical at that. But I’d still like to know if they actually claim to meet with Christ personally. It sounds like (from the other stories you guys give) they mostly just hint at it without actually saying it.
    I was talking with an LDS relative who got witness-happy on me once, and she told me that Jesus Christ Himself had told her that the LDS church is true. (I blogged about this earlier this year,here.)
    Now honestly… what does that mean? I didn’t ask because the entire conversation annoyed me, but it set my BS detector off like mad. Did Jesus Himself in flesh and bone actually meet with her personally and talk with her? Is that what’s she claimed?
    I suspect that if I had drilled her on the experience, her “knowledge” was based on something much more subjective and “spiritual” than a personal in-the-flesh visit from Christ. I wonder if it’s the same deal with LDS apostles and their testimonies.
  8. I personally think that most people who tell you probably didn’t have that experience, because such a revelation, if it occured would be so sacred you would only share it if the spirit commanded you. But I certainly think it’s possible. If Christ could make a personal appearance to Paul, He could make one to Joseph of me or you.
    However, we’re told that the word of the Spirit is the word of Christ, as are the scriptures.
  9. I had a friend once who grew up Pentecostal, and I asked him what made him convert to the LDS faith. His matter-of-fact answer was that after praying about the matter, he literally heard a voice tell him that he should join the church. I, of course, cannot verify what happened or didn’t, but this was definitely not a person who would make something like that up, nor one likely to have delusions. He was actually a rather reserved individual, so his answer surprised me. I have absolutely no doubt about his sincerity. He wouldn’t have mentioned the incident if I hadn’t asked, and he made no claims of being “special” because of what had happened.
    He is the only person I have personally known to have claimed such an experience.
    This isn’t something I would base my belief on; people with all sorts of theologies have claimed to have had supernatural experiences. But I did find it interesting.
    I agree with the comments above that if the apostles did have such an experience that they probably wouldn’t talk about it, seeing it as sacred.
  10. I think they don’t make the direct claims because of default cynicism, not helped by the likes of various televangelists.
    Rather than have an experience that sacred become the subject of a Bill Maher standup routine, they keep it sacred. It’s not as though that sort of thing is what converts a person to the Gospel.
  11. Somewhere I’ve heard that actually being a witness to the Risen Lord is a Biblical requirement for the apostolic calling. Can anyone confirm or deny?
    If they DON’T see Him, does that make them less of apostles? If they DO see Him but don’t tell us, are we basing our faith on innuendos?
  12. BTW, I see your point, Rob, about the stand-up comedy routines. It doesn’t seem like that would be a very respectful way to treat an experience so sacred.
  13. Good question, Jack. :)
    I can say definitively that I did not coin the phrase; however, I think I’m the first in the bloggernacle to use it.
    As for whether the bat-phone exists — I don’t think there’s much in recent statements to nail it down one way or the other. There’s an apocryphal story that gets circulated about Spencer W. Kimball chuckling about a jokes that God told him in a conversation. But as far as official theology, you’ve got the 1820 theophany, and the Kirtland temple, and . . . I think that’s about it, actually.
    Lots of other stuff in individual journals and accounts, but nothing that’s official, I believe. The Elder McConkie talk gets cited sometimes for the proposition that McConkie saw or talked to Jesus, but it doesn’t actually say that.
  14. Kaimi ~ Thanks for the run-down on the essentials of the belief, and thanks everyone else who answered as well.
    Katie, I personally believe that Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians 9:1 that seeing the resurrected Christ literally was one of the requirements for apostleship: “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” That’s kind of why I think the office was discontinued. There were no more people around who had literally seen Christ, and Christ quit making special appearances as He did with Paul.
    I don’t know if there’s any kind of LDS version of that belief though. I would say not.
  15. Hi Jack,
    I’m back and kicking myself for missing the conversation when this post was still fresh. This is one of the most important questions regarding the LDS faith ever, I believe.
    I asked it in Sunday school about a month ago, judging by the responses and just by what I’ve experienced in general among members, most of them believe that there is a bat-phone to heaven in President Monson’s office or that God sits in on the apostles committee meetings or something. I have to say I believe that this notion is false.
    Brother Packer’s remarks in a recent conference have already been reffereced, he practically outed himself right there as to having never seen Jesus i.e. his testimony is no different to any regular everyday mormons’.
    There’s Bruce R. McConkie’s final testimony where he says “I will know no more then [when Bruce is dead] than I do now that Jesus lives.” or some such thing. Of course this statement could swing either way, he wont know any better when he see’s Jesus on the other side that Jesus lives because he’s already seen him, but if you listen to the talk it really sounds like he’s implying that he never has seen him and that seeing him wont change his mind one way or the other.
    When I was on my mission I read a statement by one of the prophets in the Church News (I wish I kept the article) I think it was David O. McKay, a reporter asked him point blank if he’d ever seen God, he said that he’d never seen him, but that he’d heard his voice. He was THE prophet at the time.
    I just get the feeling that none of these guys have ever seen Jesus and here’s why: They by definition are called to be special witnesses of Jesus Christ, but every time one of them is asked about it these days, they offer the old chestnut that that type of thing is just too sacred to talk about. Was Joseph Smith’s experience too sacred to talk about? No, he saw God (this I actually believe, but hey I know it’s up for grabs too) and he told people about it. It’s that simple. There’s no need to be cryptic. If you’re called to testify of Jesus and you’ve seen him, tell the world, that’s your job! We ain’t giving you tithing funded living expenses for nothing.
    I could go on and on, on this subject, but I’ve gotten carried away already. I doubt having God look over your shoulder every meeting would serve any practical purpose anyway, I mean these guys are human and they learn the same way all humans do (mostly by making mistakes) there’s no reason to believe that God would in essence deprive them of agency by making every single decision for them about how the church is run. God’s a busy guy and he’s got other things to worry about. As for one off appearances as an initiation right for the quorum of the 12, well I haven’t even heard many of them say I know Jesus lives and I’ve seen him, until I hear that qualifier in a testimony I’ll go on my merry way believing as I do now.
    In the church we also apparently believe that spiritual manifestations are far more powerful and more reliable physical ones i.e. a testimony via the Holy Ghost of Jesus has a greater impact than a visitation from Jesus. I don’t think anyone actually believes this in practice and many mormons would probably be disappointed if they got an inkling that God isn’t as hands on as they like to think. I am not anti-mormon, just anti-stupid (yes, I’m a member).
  16. The mental image of the Batphone makes me laugh. :D I’ve also heard it described as a fax machine to/from heaven. I don’t think either one is an accurate portrayal of how revelation to church leaders normally works. The revelations recorded by modern-day prophets all so obviously reflect the personalities of the individual men who convey them. I don’t hear the “voice of God” when I hear them speak or read their words – I hear the voice of Thomas Monson (or Gordon Hinckley, Joseph Smith, etc) talking about his experiences with God and his own interpretation of God’s will.
    For this reason I think the Spirit probably works with church leaders the same way it works with all of us regular old followers. The still small voice, impressions, and feelings. Could direct visitations occur? Sure. But I don’t think they’re a common or day-to-day occurrence.
  17. I know this is way late, but:
    I do remember Pres. Harold B. Lee saying at his last Conference that the veil between us & the Lord is sometimes very thin.
    The “Batphone” or hotline example does give me a smile as well. IMHO; I suspect the Holy of Holies is not for routine use. And, using it might not result in a direct visit 100% of the time, but could also lead to other means of inspiration when used.
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