Big Fuss

Guys, guys.
I know that you’re angry about the rumors that the upcoming March 15 episode of Big Love is going to show parts of the LDS temple ceremony. Executive producer Mark Olsen told TV Guide, “We go into the endowment room and celestial room, and we present what happens in those ceremonies. That’s never been shown on television before.” The interview includes a picture of one of the female characters on the show in full temple garb which is, as far as I can tell, accurate except for the apron being blue instead of green. (Normally I wouldn’t link to something that displays temple content, but since plenty of pro-LDS sites have already linked to the article I’m going to go ahead with it.)
I’m a never-Mo’ with no love for LDS temple rituals, I only care about this because so many people I care about care about this. If HBO is going to do as they say, I think it’s supremely disrespectful, but that doesn’t really matter because HBO already knows they’re being supremely disrespectful. That’s why they’re doing it. They want you to get upset and form angry little Facebook groups raving about crazy stuff like secret cameras going into the temple. They want you to send in letters and post comments around the Internet voicing your discontent. In fact, they’re counting on it. There’s no such thing as bad publicity, and this will cause more people to tune in just to see what the heck the Mormons are so upset about. UPDATE: The angry “Stop HBO” Facebook group I linked to earlier had to delete itself because its mission was an abortion of common sense. There are some slightly less crazy ones here and here.
You really need not carry on like that though. You’re the freaking Mormon church. According to the media, it was because of you that Proposition 8 passed in the 11th hour, and you did it blindfolded with one arm tied behind your back. It was also your fault that the ERA didn’t pass, screw Phyllis Schlafly. You’re the second wealthiest church in the world (and the only reason the Catholics are richer is because they have 45 times the membership and have been around a lot longer), you have skills at organizing and mobilizing that would have made Caesar cry. HBO should be afraid to piss you off.
If you really want to put the hurt on Big Love, angry Facebook groups and comments on message boards and blogs aren’t the answer. Canceling your HBO subscriptions is a nice thought, but let’s face it, there aren’t enough concerned Mormons with HBO subscriptions to cancel that it would make a difference. HBO isn’t exactly family-friendly entertainment. Someone needs to compile a list of Big Love‘s sponsors, and those are the businesses you need to put the hurt on.
Either way, stop the Internet tantrum. You’re only giving HBO what they want.
UPDATE: T&S seems to have removed the link to the picture from their sidebar, so I’ve uploaded the picture to my site directly. Again, I’m only posting it because several pro-LDS sites (including the “Stop HBO” Facebook group) have shared the picture. Normally I wouldn’t link to anything pertaining to the temple that Mormons might find offensive.
Also, the LDS church has responded to the controversy and they’re more or less saying the same thing I’m saying—thanks Rob. And good for you, Mormon church. You should really just hire me as a PR advisor, I’m good at this.
Welcome T&S readers!

Comments

Big Fuss — 73 Comments

  1. How about never having been an HBO subscriber in the first place? Will that show ‘em?
    (By the way, that blue is an off-color green; the outfit is accurate enough. And it’s actually better than the snapshot of garments CNET put in one of their Buzz Out Loud podcasts some months ago, all the while cracking stupid jokes about Mormons owning Facebook. The rumor was false.)
    Mostly it’s interesting that while you’ve used a different style, the Church is saying essentially the same thing.
    Even so, they’re only able to do this to Mormons (as opposed to, say, certain radical Muslims or Hindus) because they know that Mormons will never, ever come back and kill them. Mormons are ashamed of even the distant relationship they have to the Mountain Meadows event, and they’ll take it, every time. It’s absolutely safe to spread absurd calumny about Mormons, employing their most ardent enemies to help do it, because they think the freedom to do it preserves their freedom to do other stuff.
    What Mormons might do is mourn the accord that’s failing, because of some *other* minority group’s temper tantrum. Ye cats, I’m not tired of radical activists because they’re gay/feminist/communist/whatever, oh no. It’s because it’s been utterly clear for 35 years that they simply don’t listen to anyone. Some day I should make a list of the number of ways those people nuke themselves in the foot.
  2. Thanks for linking me to the LDS church’s response, Rob.
    Even so, they’re only able to do this to Mormons (as opposed to, say, certain radical Muslims or Hindus) because they know that Mormons will never, ever come back and kill them.
    I agree, and thought about doing a paragraph on how Hollywood refuses to show Muhammad on film because it’s offensive to Muslims, yet they’ll do this. I decided my post was long enough though.
    I think you guys need to be more violent. Temple protests, post-Proposition-8 harassment, this Big Love stuff, people wouldn’t do these things if they faced a legitimate threat of having their asses kicked.
  3. Well, yeah, except for the fact that the Church is *right*… all the negative publicity doesn’t seem to be affecting our goals or our mission.
    Plus, these are prickly people, y’know? Look at them crosswise and they’ll decide to pass hate-glare-crimes legislation. Or at least sue for it in a court.
    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/134 is an interesting document to read in the context of some of these discussions. Read it not for clues as to why so many Utah Mormons are Constitution-crazy (all while ignoring the bits about ratified treaties, but there you are). Instead, read it for clues as to when Mormons might *stop* respecting the rule of certain governments, and instead pull up their stakes and go away.
  4. I TOTALLY disagree with their stance on South Park! Sure they mocked the story of Joseph Smith, but in the end they were really and truly deeply respectful toward the values most precious to the moral core of Mormonism. It was a good balance of their usual irreverence combined with a true response to those critics of the story.
    HBO… How could you? This is just absurd of them to knowingly disrespect a private practice. The closest I’ve come to seeing Mormon secrets is… Well, that’s another story! But it was a total accident. Either way, I knew this series would be BIG trouble from the start… I hate the idea of it alone so very much, and their execution of it seems to have only gotten poorer. I’ve objected by never, ever watching it though, and that’s enough for me.
  5. I’m with you on South Park, Laura. The creators actually seemed to have a pretty positive view of Mormonism as far as South Park goes. I mean, wasn’t it the Mormons who were right and got to go to heaven?
    I’m surprised the press release didn’t mention the episode of Jon Safran v. God where Safran goes to Temple Square, buys and tries on garments. This was after they began carding for TRs, too, but he was dressed in his atheist missionary clothing so they didn’t card him. Now THAT was irreverent.
  6. …but in the end they were really and truly deeply respectful toward the values most precious to the moral core of Mormonism.
    Laura, not sure if I’d go so far as to say “really and truly deeply respectful”…but certainly good-natured and not at all malicious. :)
    Actually, I just watched the South Park clips on YouTube again the other day. Still funny.
    Don’t know what to make of Big Love. It’s pretty disrespectful. But I agree with Jack that a bunch of Mormons getting all up in arms and writing enraged blog posts and forming indignant Facebook groups will just fuel the publicity fire and have the exact OPPOSITE effect.
    Pretty sure HBO doesn’t really care what Mormons think, though. They certainly didn’t have any qualms showing long-john temple Gs in Angels in America…
  7. I would! The message at the end of the Joseph Smith message was pretty clear: family values, genuine kindness, and respect for your fellow humans is more important than whatever holes you can pick in the scriptures behind it. If you choose to judge someone by those scriptures, you’re missing out on the human being and the values they hold dear.
    And obviously HBO doesn’t care what Mormons think, or they never would’ve started that abomination of a show. The premise alone makes me sick. But then again, lots and lots of TV these days does that to me. The fact that people like Paris Hilton have been allowed on TV, reality TV in general, a good deal of the absurd “regular” shows (Desperate Housewives, anyone?)… It seems like they’re pandering lower and lower to appeal to those whose idea of good TV is violence, sex, scandal, and idiocy. I end up watching a lot of public television, as programs like Nova are much, much more interesting to me than something like a bunch of upscale New York kids going to school and being complete and utter FOOLS.
  8. Oh cry me a river…come on everyone, this isn’t that terrible. Your telling me that the Catholic Church hasn’t had it’s share of sacred observances shown in multiple media formats. Did any of you see The Davinci Code? Wait until Angels and Demons comes out, man the cry and hue of Catholics will be truly incredible when that ones is shown in American theaters.
    My point is that this is ridiculous how much attention the LDS church and even sites like yours is giving this whole situation. People will see it now because they are curious.
    Second, if you’ve watched the series (I have) and every season, you realize that the portrayal though a big exaggerated at times, is actually done well in terms of the LDS (mainline) members, and I am one, so don’t tell me it’s not. I’ve lived in Utah for 40 years and many of the things they discuss happen from time to time.
    Most mainline Mormons on the show are not treated in a disrespectful manner. As for the Temple Ceremony, from what I understand it’s only going to be shown as a flashback memory (as a good memory) and will be part of the reason “Barb” is torn up about the excommunication proceedings.
    This rush to judgement over a masonic ritual is just beyond me. I’ve been to the temple many times, and frankly you can read all about it on the internet, see the garments online, see temple clothing online, good grief, why doesn’t the LDS church just boycott the world!
  9. Karl, I actually haven’t watched the series so I haven’t commented on its portrayal of Mormonism. I confess though, the buzz has made me curious, and I adore Bill Paxton after Frailtyanyways, so I added Season 1 Disc 1 to my Netflix queue and should be able to see the first few episodes tomorrow.
    I’m equally annoyed by the poor portrayal of Catholics in television and film, and frankly, evangelicals never come out smelling like roses either. I remember the misogynist former preacher Caleb from Season 7 of Buffy and demon-in-disguise Ken from the Season 3 premier “Anne” were pretty evangelical bad guys. I don’t blog about those things though because my focus is Mormonism from an evangelical perspective. In fact it’s pretty common for the bad guys in film and television to be religious Christian figures while the good guys are wise-cracking atheists, agnostics, Jews or Muslims. Those are the belief systems Hollywood likes.
    I was originally going to ignore this subject, but after receiving several invites to that ridiculous Facebook group from LDS friends and relatives I decided to go ahead and do a post on it. Sorry if I’m inadvertently adding to the buzz, but at least I’m not sensationalizing anything.
  11. If you really want to put the hurt on Big Love, angry Facebook groups and comments on message boards and blogs aren’t the answer. Canceling your HBO subscriptions is a nice thought, but let’s face it, there aren’t enough concerned Mormons with HBO subscriptions to cancel that it would make a difference. HBO isn’t exactly family-friendly entertainment. Someone needs to compile a list of Big Love’s sponsors, and those are the businesses you need to put the hurt on.
    The “sponsors” of Big Love? If it’s an HBO series, isn’t HBO itself the sponsor – i.e., HBO subscriptions and viewership “sponsor” the series?
  12. Really? They don’t do advertisements or commercials?
    I knew that HBO was subscription TV, but I didn’t know that meant they had no other sponsors. If that’s the case then I think there is no effective way to protest the show. I really don’t believe there are enough indignant Mormons who can cancel subscriptions that it would matter.
  13. Big Love has plenty of product placement sponsors. The only excerpt from the show I’ve seen was a Daily Show skit where they skewered just how much product placement was in the show.
  14. More details are at IMDB, but the center of it is this: Anima Sola Productions secured (or was asked to secure) product placement sponsorships. They help pay for the show. Most every show has product placement. Any time you see a brand of any kind, it’s there.
    The deals worked for these kinds of sponsorships are as byzantine an any hollywood deal. HBO could have won them and made them a condition of season renewal through network notes to the producers. Anima Sola could have won them and directed their writers and directors to put them in.
    Point is, there really isn’t any easy way to get at this show through sponsorships. The labor groups will completely ignore you. If HBO didn’t win them, they ignore you. Anima Sola ignores you anyway,
    The individual sponsors might benefit from a letter or 10,000, but you’d have to ACTUALLY WATCH THE SHOW to get the sponsor list, meaning… you’d have to subscribe to HBO.
    And, since devout Mormons aren’t watching anyway, Jack is right, there is no leverage.
  15. Karl-
    Just because other people did it to Mormons, Catholics, or anyone else does not make it right. If people’s beliefs are being thrown on display, misrepresented, mocked, or otherwise degraded, they can make a fuss if they want to. Whether or not that fuss actually changes anything may not even be the point. Sometimes you need to let your displeasure be known, even if it goes on anyway, so that other people can be AWARE how offensive this sort of thing is. Even if the people responsible for it never hear it, it helps to get word out to the general public that this is a violation of Mormon privacy. Then they can consider that or ignore it and just keep on with their lives.
    It’s not like I’m an official member of the Mormon church. I’m not even Christian. That doesn’t mean I can’t let people know that I think what they’re doing is wrong. I’m not even going into the flaming rants I think this deserves, especially since I doubt any HBO high-ups are going to meander on over. But everyone who comes here can see that I think the choices they made are absurd and disrespectful. Maybe those who don’t agree or don’t know will read what we’ve been saying and give it some thought. It’s all I hope for, and if you think it’s “river-crying,” well… Go cry somewhere else about crying a river, because we’re discussing the subject here and giving opinions on it.
  16. Frankly, I have a hard time seeing what the big deal is. Complete transcripts of the temple ceremony are available online already (I haven’t read one, because for me to do so would be disrespectful, but I know they’re there), so it’s not like anybody is breaking ground here.
    If I were in charge of the network, I wouldn’t do what they’re doing, because it’s offensive at best to those who believe (and that includes me).
    But the gratuitous violence and sex that grace our entertainment media every day is a lot more offensive to me than anything HBO is likely to do to the temple ceremony. The temple ceremony is only a symbol, so attack as you wish. But when you portray creatures created in the very image of God the way that much of our entertainment today does, now that is truly offensive.
  17. Doesn’t the BYU library have English copies of the Koran (without accompanying Arabic) that Muslims find blasphemous, even worthy of death in some countries for having?
    Methinks some people want special treatment.
    And given Mormon logic, shouldn’t I withhold exposing information about Xenu the Galactic Warlord to my daughter, even if she is considering joining Scientology, since such information is privileged, “sacred”, and secret?
  18. I wrote this awhile back on the South Park issue.
    To quote a Mormon,
    “I just want to say that if we can’t take any kind of criticism or sarcasm or spoofing on TV then we don’t deserve to be a religion. I think it’s great that we’re being at least taken seriously enough to be spoofed by a national TV show. I’m at least pleased they got the facts right. Even though they may have been a little bit irreverent, at least they gave us the respect in doing that. And I just figure that if anything it’ll help, at least, people understand, and especially helps us see what we take for granted…”
  19. Greetings Jack, been awhile. :)
    While I understand the indignation the Mormons have over this issue, the reality is that they don’t have enough strength or pull to get HBO to change their mind. For every LDS who pulls their subscription there will be a nevermo who signs up to see what all the fuss is about. Sad but it’s reality, Mormons are fighting a long defeat against keeping secrets secret. They may fight valiantly, but they’re going to lose.
    Btw sports fans I love Big Love and have been writing reviews of it for the past two seasons. It has gotten worse for Mormons this season with the inclusion of Barb (Jeanne Tripplehorn’s) sister and brother in law as mainstream LDS characters. But wait till next season…when they can bring Prop 8 into the equation. You haven’t seen nothing yet, especially considering the creators are gay and probably feel strongly about the issue.
  20. I now officially have other non-members who aren’t usually interested in Mormonism or Big Love asking me what the big deal is on this. See what all the whining hath wrought? The Mormons who whined about this are fail.
    Zack it’s good to see you again. I was thinking of dropping by your blog the other day, but I’ve been so darned busy lately. I will come and drop some comments soon though! I miss your heathen-ness.
    I’ve now seen the first five episodes of Season 1 of Big Love, mostly through Netflix. Observations:
    ~ I am much closer to Bill Paxton’s ass than I ever thought I would be. This show is written by gay men? Could have fooled me.
    ~ I like Barb, and I’m impressed that she’s so much prettier than Nikki and Margene given that she’s the oldest. The other two wives are meh. Margene is especially annoying. But Jeanne Tripplehorn is gorgeous. I hope I look that good when I’m 45. I’m not even sure I look that good now.
    ~ I have not seen anything which misrepresents Mormon doctrine or culture—in fact, so far the LDS characters have been portrayed in very positive light (though I can’t believe one of them actually says, “I’ve upped my standards now up yours!”). The writers definitely know LDS culture and it’s very well done.
    ~ Having known some modern polygamists, I actually find the polygamy drama rather intriguing. The essentials of how they run their family with the man rotating nights with each woman are pretty much what I would expect. I wouldn’t expect a polygamist family to have so much materialism, but I guess this is television.
    ~ See my comment above where I reference the Buffy Season 3.1 episode “Anne”? The actor who played the demon Ken (whose human disguise was rather evangelical) is on the show as the neighbor across the street. Strange coincidence; I had no idea when I wrote the comment.
    ~ I adore the opening credits sequence.
    I’m not sure how much more of the series I’ll watch. My husband is complaining about me taking up the Netflix queue and I do find the Season 1 DVD box set lay-out to be horrible. They spread 12 episodes between 5 discs, with only 2-3 episodes per disc. It’s like they wanted to annoy Netflix users.
  21. BTW, I should probably clarify something on my “go for their sponsors” suggestion: I’ve participated in a few campaigns to save TV shows or protest something. Writing to sponsors is always high on the list of effective tactics. The TV producers may not care to re-think their decisions, but if their sponsors start getting boycotted or barraged with letters, they might care.
    Another thought occurred to me: why don’t Mormons turn the other cheek on this? Don’t just say nothing; send cards, flowers and stuffed animals to HBO producers (which they would likely donate to charity from there). Let them know that while you don’t agree with their actions, you still love the writers and producers as people. It’s a little sappy, but I bet it would make a bigger statement than boycotts or protests.
  22. That’s one of the better ideas I’ve read about. However, as I pointed out in my blog, I think there’s far, far bigger fish to fry in the TV pan than a sympathetic-but-still-offensive portrayal of part of the Temple rite.
    If you’re gonna be an activist toward TV producers, I think the correct people to pick on are sitting on the FCC commission, letting short-sighted business decisions direct the disposition of public airwaves.
  23. Turn the other cheek?
    I recall (this point of view is on Wikipedia) someone pointing out that turning the other cheek was initially seen as a mild form of civil disobedience. The turning either provoked the aggressor into using his unclean hand to strike again, or provoked him into treating the object of his battery as an equal, by challenging him to fight back.
    I like that point of view, since it refutes the doormat-Christian straw man.
    I wonder how such a turning could be translated to our culture today. It seems beyond the pale to suggest that laws be passed to force a private-channel broadcaster to respect all the sensibilities of one minority religion.
    I know! They should be required at this point to depict Mohammed in a sympathetic teleplay about the flight to Medina. Kind of like that old TBS miniseries about Abraham.
    Mormons should totally call for that, in their letter writing campaigns.
  25. HBO’s content is out of the jurisdiction. Time Warner’s business model (as a cable TV provider) of channel bundling and constant relentless inflation-outstripping price increases is not.
  26. If you have only watched the first season let me tell you that Season 2 was far better. The middle 4-5 were probably the best in the series history, even surpassing what is turning out to be a solid season this year. I think the show is worth watching, certainly more thought provoking than most of the stuff on network. The quality of the acting in recent episodes is light years ahead of that seen in the first season from all parts of a great ensemble cast. Beyond that the show does have dramatic effect and works within it’s own weird bizarro world.
    I will weigh in on the temple ceremony after I see the episode, but I have a feeling it will make sense within the episode, not being a complete attempt to “F-U” the Mormons. However I doubt the creators even if they’re up to speed on Mormon culture understand that you cannot show this scene in a dignified manner, because to show the scene (in the opinion of Mormons) is undignified. We’ll see how it plays out.
  27. I’m glad others out there have recognized the bad intent of the creators because of their sexual orientation.
    FWIW, I’ve boycotted all of Dan Brown’s works because of how disrepectful they are of the Catholic religion. Even while not being Catholic, I knew that Dan Brown could have just as easily chosen to misrepresent my religion. I think part of it comes down to society’s utter lack of boundaries, in either understanding or respecting. For the last 50 years, the media has been “pushing the envelope”, trying to be more inventive and “edgy” and have largely succeeded. We now have no qualms about showing most of the human body on prime-time television, autopsies are startingly graphic, and there is no more respect for religion. Then some high-minded individuals say, “It doesn’t hurt you.” but you’d have to be pretty stupid to not recognize that the affect on one individual is an affect on society which is an affect on you.
  28. MadChemist – “I’m glad others out there have recognized the bad intent of the creators because of their sexual orientation.”
    That sounds… Very bad. I understand that many of the homosexual crowd was upset with the Mormon church regarding Prop. 8 and cultural differences, but it would be a LOT more accurate to blame the nature of their character than their sexual orientation. Otherwise you’re putting down all homosexuals as people with “bad intent” toward Mormons, and it just simply isn’t true at all.
  30. Point #1:
    I’d like the media to acknowledge that HBO’s episode should expect no different reaction than a TV show with an actor portraying Mohammad would. Outrage from the believers. As long as the news media sees the connection and treats both faiths the same, I’ve got no beef with them.
    #2:
    I think Mormons need to realize that they aren’t the only people who ever got mocked on TV. I’m sure the Catholics weren’t particularly thrilled with “The Da Vinci Code’s” portrayal of Opus Dei. Not to mention the crap Muslims put up with in the latest summer action flick featuring Middle Eastern terrorists.
    #3:
    Mormons also ought to acknowledge that this is information age America. You can’t have secrets without everyone thinking you’re up to something.
    #4:
    Mormons need to stop expecting the (debatably) neutral media to act as another branch of the LDS PR department. It is not required for the news media to blow trumpets, shower down rose petals, and cue up appropriate heartwarming piano muzak every time Mormonism is discussed. Seriously, some Mormons seem to get pissed any time anyone does a portrayal of Mormonism that couldn’t double as devotional message at the next stake conference.
    Back when the movie Brigham City came out, there were Mormons who were angry that the movie showed deacons passing the sacrament.
    I mean, geez… get over it!
    #5:
    The official LDS response was entirely appropriate. They basically said – “we consider this sacred, but whatever.”
    Lay Mormons would do well to follow suit. Public outrage only fuels the fire.
  31. Sadly, Mormons have a persecution complex–they always think people are after them for their strange and apostate beliefs. The LDS Church’s drive to be seen as mainstream Christian is destroyed when their secret (not sacred) rites are revealed to the public. This is but a small sample of the bizarre and strange beliefs the LDS church considers doctrine. My heart goes out to them–they are good people but lost and separated from the real truth of Jesus’ redeeming and substitutionary death on the cross for ALL their sins for ALL times.
    May God open their eyes to the truth and if episodes like the temple ceremony help them out of the fog then Praise the Lord.
  32. Kakki ~ Some Mormons have a persecution complex. Not necessarily the ones who got upset about this. In this case they really were being singled out and attacked, though I wouldn’t call an unfavorable portrayal on television “persecution.”
    Showing off their temple rituals on public television isn’t the way to bring them closer to Christ. That’s gonna be about as effective as calling their wives and daughters whores.
  33. Kakki: “they always think people are after them for their strange and apostate beliefs.” Yes, I wish people would just leave me to my apostate beliefs.
    “…their secret (not sacred) rites….” Yawn. Yes, I get it: you don’t think my rites are sacred. Join the crowd. But I don’t want them to be sacred to you; they’re not your covenants. They’re mine and they’re sacred to me. You do not get to decide what is sacred to others. As for them being “secret,” you’re wrong there too: for decades anyone with a little tiny bit of searching could learn every detail. Not much of a secret.
    “My heart goes out to them….” If this is how your heart goes out, then don’t bother.
    /bristle
  34. I kind of have to agree with BrianJ. And I certainly don’t have a persecution complex. You can’t generalize and include *every* Mormon. Of course, I’m not the average Mormon. I consider myself pretty open-minded and accepting.
  35. Part of the reason Mormon rituals are sacred is BECAUSE they are secret. The secrecy enhances the sacred character.
    Yes, I know this tends to irk some Evangelicals. I realize a lot of Evangelicals are incapable of considering anything “sacred” that can’t be immediately put up on a cheap bumper sticker or bad T-shirt. Just like a lot of Evangelicals can’t consider prayer sacred unless they’re shouting it from the streets and rubbing everyone’s noses in it.
    I get that a lot of Evangelicals prefer a crass sort of publicized religion and find anyone who keeps religion personal to be messed-up.
    Well tough. I don’t happen to like your notions of “sacredness” either.
  36. I have long felt that this “secret not sacred” argument put out by evangelical counter-cult types is totally stupid. I think we all have experiences which become less special to us if we share it with every stranger we meet, and I thought Blake’s post comparing HBO’s exposure of the temple ceremonies to what pornographers do with sex was right on target.
    Still, I don’t really believe in the LDS church’s interpretation of “milk before meat.” I’m a cynic. If a religion wants me to believe in it, I’ll thank it to put all of its cards on the table and not get shy if I want to ask some probing questions. Saying “We can’t tell you about that right now” is just another way of saying, “If we told you about that right now, you’d reject it. You have to be conditioned to accept it.”
    There are certainly things in evangelical Christianity which I would not want to start out on with a potential investigator, but there isn’t anything I wouldn’t discuss if they needed to know.
    Anyways, I figured it was only a matter of time before evangelical counter-cult types started bringing their dumber arguments to my site. I guess I didn’t do a good enough job calling them stupid here and here. I’m surprised it took them this long.
  37. Regarding the “milk before meat” response, anything could be true about your interlocutor:
    A) He doesn’t understand the concept himself and might not want to admit it.
    B) If it’s clear the question will evaporate once more fundamental information is given (because the context of the question is not sensible in Mormonism) (see Isa. 28)
    C) If he suspects the question stems from hostility or simple curiosity. (see Matt. 7:6)
    D) He’s a jerk and wants to lord it over you. (see A)
    E) He doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he says, “Milk before meat,” that is, “Milk” is “get them to agree to repent first.” (see D&C 19)
    As to your actual unanswered questions, I’d have to know what they are in order to know whether I’d be cagey. Chances are I wouldn’t, or I’d at least have the sense to explain why I won’t tell you straight up.
  38. I dunno Rob. I won’t even ask my husband the things I want to ask, I’m too worried about offending him.
    Wanna start easy?
    Tell me (what you can) about your first time through the temple.
    Tell me what the temple means to you. Give me your testimony of it. I promise not to mock or be condescending or sarcastic and I’ll beat anyone over the head who is.
    Feel free to not do either of those things if you don’t want to.
  40. Seth: I think there is a difference between “secret” and “private.” I stand by what I said above: (almost) nothing in the temple is secret. Sacred and private, yes.
    Jack: I’d answer your questions in a private email. You have my address.
  42. ~Bridget–If the Mormon temple ceremony wasn’t a near copy of the secret (not sacred) Masonic temple rites perhaps I could be a bit more sympathetic. Mormon Temple rites are supposed to be a copy of Jewish temple rites as described in the Old Testament. They are not. This is the USA and you are free to believe anything you want–so, keep on believing this pagan temple stuff if you think it is sacred. Perhaps you may want to ask yourself what kind of God would judge you by how hard you “work” to be acceptable to Him. A god that would base your acceptance and love on secret Masonic handshakes and gestures and what the church considers good works is capricious and punitive. Jesus offers all the free gift of salvation by placing your faith and trust in his sacrificial death on the cross. He died in your place for you! There could never be enough good works to become acceptable to a Holy God–the ground is level at the foot of the cross. We do good works out of love and obedience to Him. It’s a joy not a necessity to gain His favor. We already have His favor because we love Him because He first loved us.
    I have so many Mormon friends who are miserable because they are overworked with callings they never felt called to do–fearful because they think (and rightly so) they can never be good enough in God’s eyes. They put on a happy face and keep on doing what they are told to do for fear they will not make it if they don’t. They allow hierarchies of the church to think for them and are like lambs led to the slaughter. II Timothy 1:7 says: For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
    For your eternal soul’s sake use your mind! Study the Bible (maybe start with the book of John) and allow God’s Word to fill your heart and mind–you won’t have to depend on a “burning in the bosom.” Feelings are fickle–God’s Word is true and He never changes–He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
    One of the more ridiculous comments I’ve heard that comes from the LDS Church about women say’s it pleases God when you wear pantyhose to church. Would you please think about that statement and ask yourself if this is credible and can be attributed to God or the foolishness of man?
    Sorry for the rant! I genuinely desire that you come to know the REAL God. Not some deluded person’s wild thoughts that contradict the word of God and twist the truth of salvation.
  44. michael: Nope; I’ve seen Bill Maher and know what to expect.
    Kakki: Hilarious! You realize that Bridget Jack Meyers is an evangelical who rejects the LDS temple, right? Just a “minor” detail….
    “One of the more ridiculous comments I’ve heard that comes from the LDS Church about women say’s it pleases God when you wear pantyhose to church.” You’re right: it would be utterly ridiculous to believe that the LDS Church actually said that.
  45. Jack, I have to agree with Kakki here. Repent and turn from your eeeeeeevil Mormon ways.
    However, I must politely disagree about the pantyhose thing. That’s solid counsel. There is nothing more distracting to the Spirit of God than seeing a woman’s gleaming white legs sticking out underneath her skirt. If she’s using self-tanner, okay, I can make an exception. But most of the time, let’s be honest, she needs the control top anyway.
  46. BTW, Jack, just read upthread. Given my circumstances, I don’t know how representative my experience would be, but I’d be happy to talk “off the record” with you about my thoughts/impressions on the temple. Let me know.
  47. So Kakki, you say Mormon temple rites are similar to Masonic rites?
    Here’s a quarter. Go call someone who cares.
  48. ~Seth–you call–I don’t need your quarter–and I know about both of them!
  51. Michael ~ No, and I don’t plan on it.
    Kakki ~ Well, you’ve already apologized elsewhere for thinking I was Mormon, so I guess I can’t make fun of you for that.
    You really need to re-think your approach to Mormons though. You may be sincere but you are a walking counter-cult cliché right now and trust me, Mormons are tired of all the arguments you’re trying. And seriously… pantyhose? You’re gonna try to win people over to Christ with crazy stories about pantyhose?
    /sigh
    Katie ~ I’ll hit you up in private sometime. I has soooo much stuff to write about now that I’m back from Trinity.
    And as an aside (to all), what do you guys think of the similarities between the Masonic rites and the temple rituals? I’ve never done too much looking into it because I’ve had a strict “leave-the-temple-alone” policy for nearly 10 years now, being a temple phobe and all, but I am curious.
  52. Why should the Masonic similarities be a problem? Jesus himself borrowed from the culture of his day to bring out spiritual truths, so why shouldn’t Joseph Smith have done the same thing?
  53. I don’t see how I could publish a rigorous comparison without me violating my own notions of privacy and sanctity, and simultaneously violating a Freemason’s notion of privacy, where either ritual is concerned?
    I’ve read the Masonic ceremony (my Freemason friend was not fussed), and participated in the Mormon one. Out of respect for the Freemason’s notions, I’ll not make a detailed comparison. I will point out this:
    1 — Joseph Smith and a lot of (most of? can’t remember) his peers were Freemasons. At the time, it was part of how one entered politics in Illinois and elsewhere.
    2 — Smith declared at one point that the Masonic ritual was a degenerate (my word, meaning simply “changed from the original”) form of an ancient Temple ceremony. To my knowledge there is no support for the absurd and specious claim that the ceremony Smith referenced was the same as the rituals at Solomon’s Temple; for example, the roleplay presentation part of the Masonic ritual depicts a crime committed during that Temple’s construction.
    3 — Smith gave the original text for the presentation of the Mormon endowment in Nauvoo, shortly before his death.
    4 — There are structural similarities between the two, which is not a surprise given Smith’s claim, and given his community’s familiarity with that pattern of administering and contextualizing oaths. There are also precisely two symbols (there used to be a few more) in common between the two rites. However, the symbols are used for entirely different purposes in each case. (This was also true where there were a few more.)
    In short, any characterization of Masonic and Mormon ritual as similar is superficially valid, as an interesting historical fact and perhaps an example of how human innovation works in general. But beyond that, it’s useless as a critique of the Mormon faith, especially coming from places hostile to both Freemasonry (a relatively harmless fraternal service order) and Mormonism (a Church purporting to be the Kingdom of God on Earth.)
  54. Brian, what does FTW stand for? (Is it a curse? Because the only thing I can come up with is a little bit naughty. [No surprises there.]) :)
    Re: temple/Masons. The only answer that even remotely satisfies me on this question is that JS borrowed freely from Masonic tradition to create a symbolic experience that espouses the principles/concepts contained in the Endowment. In other words, he consciously adapted it, but because the whole thing is symbolic anyway, it’s okay.
  56. Jung explained this idea of “archetypes” – the idea that there are ritual and spiritual concepts that are inherent to the human condition and underlie ALL religious traditions. He used this to explain why you encounter uncanny similarities between religions that originated on different sides of the globe and seem otherwise unconnected.
    Now a Mormon or Christian can probably take this idea of archetypes and throw in God’s universal influence as they believe in it as a facilitator.
    My own view is that Masonry preserves valid and bona fide aspects of the old true religion. I think Joseph was not ill advised at all to tap into such a gold mine of religious, and highly Christian symbology.
    So the accusation of “Mason cooties” has always been a big ho-hum for me. So what if it is similar to Masonry. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
  57. Katie: I went through the same words the first time I saw “FTW”. For the Win means no one can top your comment.
  59. I don’t believe in “Mason cooties;” I personally do not know enough about Masonry in itself to judge. And I don’t really have a problem with believing that Joseph Smith adapted Masonry because it seemed to illuminate some sort of universal truth that excited him, but couldn’t the same defense be made of Christianity’s use of Greek philosophy and the nature of God?
    Seth, you actually think the Masonic rituals are ancient (or inspired by something ancient)? I did not think even the Masons believed that.
  60. I’m pretty sure the Masons do think their rituals are ancient Jack. I spent about an hour puttering around on a Masonic apologist website once. Chock full of references to 1st century Christianity, ancient Judaism, etc.
    So, I thought it was a pretty safe assumption that Masons themselves consider what they are doing to be ancient in origin.
  61. Bridget–in all honesty–I don’t fight with mormons–the panty hose story comes from several former mormons…I just get really weary of such crazy things–mormons have the KJV of the Bible and if they would read it–without the additions of JS footnotes, they could see for themselves…
  62. Kakki, I’ve never met an Evangelical yet who didn’t bring their own set of assumptions and theological lenses to the Bible.
    Truth is, no one ever reads the Bible text completely objectively. I think it’s probably impossible to do so.
    So I’ll happily take the “biased” label if you are willing to wear it too.
  64. Actually, there are quite a few of us Mormons who study the Bible, even the Protestant translations of it. Like Seth R. suggested, we all bring our own beliefs and and suppositions into the text. I doubt if you could find anyone who knew nothing about theology who would read the Bible for the first time and come up with the orthodox Christian view of the Trinity, for example. That’s just one example of what some people read into the text that isn’t clearly there; we Mormons often do the same thing with other issues.
    There’s a lot we believe that’s in the Bible, very true, but I’m not aware of any of our beliefs that directly contradict the Bible. Our differences with many other Christians is on matters where the Bible is silent or ambiguous.
  65. Eric, that’s crazy talk. Mormons don’t read the Bible. We either 1) ignore it completely, 2) burn it and urinate on the ashes, or 3) the most studious of us read only the footnotes, but never ever the actual text. The fact that those footnotes even match up with the text at all is quite miraculous, because not even the footnoters studied the Bible before or during the footnoting process.
  72. It’s pretty much the king of evangelical study Bibles right now, having usurped the NIV Study Bible’s position for that slot. There are plenty of online Bible study resources out there, I loveCrosswalk for that, but I’m not sure if the actual text of the ESV Study Bible is online anywhere.
    I really love the ESV translation, too. As I’ve said elsewhere, it has definite complementarian biasin its passages dealing with women, but it is otherwise one of the best translations out there.
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