Am I attending a hard complementarian church?

My soapboxing at fMh yesterday got me mulling over my own church situation. I’ve always attended egalitarian denominations in the past (Church of the Nazarene, Presbyterian Church {USA}, Assembly of God) and it wasn’t until last year that I began attending a complementarian denomination—NewFrontiers.1 I had not been going to church very much at the time due to a lot of factors which I won’t bore you with now, but I began attending New Community Church of Tacoma in the depths of my depression over my mother’s terminal illness. The people there have provided wonderful fellowship, they were there for me through my mother’s sickness and death, and I thoroughly enjoy the worship and preaching there. A few Sundays ago we had a special speaker from a NewFrontiers church in South Africa who preached the best message on the gift of the Holy Spirit that I’ve ever heard, the kind of message that I wish all evangelicals were teaching more regularly. It is clear to me that there are many, many people in the denomination who are empowered by the Spirit of God.
Still, the entire time I have attended, there has been a lingering question in my mind of how the denomination as a whole treats women. My local church is considered a church plant, too small to have more than a pastor and a few others on the staff. We have a Sunday evening service and a “Sunday school” class that meets on a weekday night, plus individual weekly small groups. On the third Sunday of the month we meet in the mornings for a special prayer & worship meeting and to take communion. In other words, there aren’t really any opportunities for me to feel marginalized or barred from leadership on a local level; our activity is too limited to worry about it.
Many of the LDS commentators at fMh relayed good, progressive experiences with local Mormon leadership which were better than what one would expect from the religion on the international level, but I kind of chided them for continuing to support a religion that marginalizes women institutionally. Then the question occurred to me… am I any better? My experience with NewFrontiers on the local level may be neutral-to-positive, but is my denomination any better at the worldwide level? I decided that maybe I should find out.
Soft complementarian v. Hard complementarian
It may be pertinent to list some of the differences between soft complementarians and hard complementarians in evangelicalism.
~ Neither allow women to be senior pastors or elders.
~ Soft c.’s acknowledge that women were deacons in the Bible and can be deacons now (Romans 16:1-2, 1 Timothy 3:11). Hard c.’s insist that Phoebe was just a “servant” and “the women” in 1 Tim. 3:11 refers to wives of male deacons, not female deacons.
~ Soft c.’s will let women lead worship, lead women’s ministries, teach co-ed Sunday school and some very rare, very liberal soft c. churches will even let them be assistant pastors. Hard c.’s try not to let women do anything that involves teaching men, including Sunday school and speaking at the pulpit, and generally won’t let them lead worship or offer prayers from the pulpit for the congregation. Hard c.’s may or may not allow women to participate on the worship team, but not lead it.
~ Soft c.’s may set up a council of women to advise the council of elders in lieu of allowing them to actually be elders. Hard c.’s will not.
If you want to see a well-written position statement from a soft complementarian church, check out the statement from Imago Dei Community Church in Portland. Even though I disagree with the soft complementarian position, I applaud Imago Dei for being up front about their position and acknowledging that this is a valid point of disagreement within the body of Christ.
NewFrontiers
This is what I’ve learned about NewFrontiers and women:
~ The official web site says nothing about their position on women, which is usually not a good sign. It means they aren’t listing it because it’s unpopular and they don’t want to have to publicly defend it.
~ The official web site only refers to male leadership in conjunction with Ephesians 4. This is odd since most people understand the gifts in Ephesians 4 to be available to both men and women; “men” could mean “men and women” in Greek and, in the New Testament, it usually does.
~ I checked the official web site for every local NewFrontiers church in the United States. Pastors and elders were mentioned (all male), but not deacons. No offices were mentioned as a substitution for deacons which women had available to them. The only women listed on any local church staffs were secretaries and children’s ministry directors. I did not even see any special women’s ministry leaders.
~ Finally I did a web search for “NewFrontiers and Women” and came across this blog post by Dave Warnock, an egalitarian Methodist minister, and the evidence he presents there is not good. A NewFrontiers leadership conference last year featured 37 speakers: 35 men and 2 women, and the 2 women were wives of other speakers who do not hold any kind of leadership position within NewFrontiers. That’s even worse than the ratio at LDS General Conference, especially if you count the Relief Society/YW session.
~ Warnock also notes that NewFrontiers is terribly cozy with Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill in Seattle, and a huge fan of his stance on gender roles. I only recently learned of Driscoll. BrianJand I were discussing the possibility of meeting up in Seattle to attend Mars Hill on Easter, so I did a little looking into Driscoll. In response to the Episcopalian church’s decision to ordain female bishops, Driscoll remarked:
All of this has led this blogger to speculate that if Christian males do not man up soon, the Episcopalians may vote a fluffy baby bunny rabbit as their next bishop to lead God’s men. When asked for their perspective, some bunny rabbits simply said that they have been discriminated against long enough and that people need to “Get over it.”
Yup, you heard that right. Driscoll views his sisters in Christ as “fluffy baby bunny rabbits.” With an attitude like that, I think I’d much rather have a fluffy baby bunny rabbit as my pastor than a turd like Driscoll. This guy makes Boyd K. Packer look like a flaming feminist.
Needless to say, the fact that NewFrontiers is apparently a huge fan of Driscoll’s stance on gender roles is a little disturbing to me.
Conclusion
I wrote to the official NewFrontiers contact e-mail address to ask them point blank what their position on women is. I’ll update this article if they do write back to me, but so far it appears that they are fairly hard complementarian.
I’m not going to stop attending New Community Church in Tacoma, not when I’m moving in five months anyways. This issue really makes me heartsick. The people there have been good to me and I would feel like a jerk for abandoning them when it is not their fault that the denomination on the whole has a rather poor attitude towards women.
However, once I do move in the fall, from here on out I’m taking my own advice. Churches are not going to change their attitudes and re-examine the biblical basis for women’s leadership unless people stop supporting them in their error, so it’s probably about time I paid attention to this issue when I search for a church home. Unless I feel compelled by the Spirit to do otherwise, from August onward I’m only attending egalitarian churches or extremely soft complementarian churches.
Hmm. You know, this is the closest I think I’ve ever come to feminist activism, and it feels good.
h/t: Complegalitarian for the Imago Dei church statement on gender.
1 NewFrontiers is apparently a “family of churches” and not a denomination. My church is officially considered non-denominational but it is affiliated with NewFrontiers. I have no idea what the functional difference is between a church with a denomination and a church with an official affiliation to a “church family” as they sound like the same thing to me, but for simplicity’s sake, I’m referring to NewFrontiers as a denomination.

Comments

Am I attending a hard complementarian church? — 21 Comments

  1. Oooh…so sad. :(
    I’m a lot like you… I have come to the point where, barring a direct word from God in a dream or something (heh), I simply cannot and will not attend a church that believes that my sex defines my giftings.
    Even more importantly, I do not want to attend a church that teaches my daughters and sons that good/godly women are only allowed to have *some* spiritual giftings but not others, that there is something good and noble about a man who aspires to be a pastor but something wrong with a woman who feels called in that same way, etc.
    It has become something that I’m not okay with “agreeing to disagree” on anymore, except in the realm of conversations that do not directly affect my life. I will happily continue to respect those who believe in gender roles of males leading and females following, but I will also happily vote with my feet when it comes to what kind of church I’m going to get involved with.
  2. Great post (and comments over on fMh). To be honest, the Methodist church doesn’t really talk about this issue much (for the most part, it seems fairly moot within the institutional framework), but one of my biggest ongoing arguments with my evangelical sister is about the proper role of women. I haven’t asked her what her thoughts are re: church leadership, but given her views on women’s role in the home and marriage, I think you and she would have a fairly healthy disagreement :-) .
    So as the ice-queen, career-focused big sister in the debate, THANK YOU for giving me some scriptural ammo (or at least shields) through your posts and comments on this subject!
  3. Molleth, you’re preaching to the choir, though I don’t think I’ve been through the abuse you have. I have come to the point though where I think I need to make my feelings on the matter clear by only supporting churches which give women a voice. There are many, many other things which I’m learning about NewFrontiers and women which is disturbing me. For example, at said conference with only 2 female speakers, the women only talked about women’s issues and no men attended their sessions. Apparently NFI doesn’t feel like women have anything valuable to teach men.
    I did learn from reading the comments at Warnock’s blog that there are some NewFrontiers churches with deacons which allow women to be deacons, but deacons are relatively rare for NFI as a rule.
    Stay tuned, Whitney. I think I’m gonna start doing a series on why I’m not an evangelical complementarian in the next week or two, making full use of sarcasm. And I think you would like Dave Warnock’s blog, since he’s Methodist and has written quite a bit about this topic.
  4. You know, I had to laugh at myself because I’ve been so wrapped up in Mormon/Evangelical blogs that I had no idea where to find a Methodist blog. So I was quite delighted to see your link, and I can’t wait to find yet more ways to avoid my Antitrust reading.
  5. The official web site says nothing about their position on women, which is usually not a good sign. It means they aren’t listing it because it’s unpopular and they don’t want to have to publicly defend it.
    A more benign explanation of their motives would be that they don’t see it as an issue. I’ve looked at web sites and statements of faith of many, many denominations, and very, very few talk about whether they’re egalitarian or complementarian.
    That said, it doesn’t take much reading between the lines to figure out where this church stands on the issue, as there are quite a few references to “teams of men” being the ones involved in growing the church.
    In preparation for my Sunday school class, I’ve been reading about the state of U.S. Christianity during Joseph Smith’s time. Just as on the Newfrontiers site, there was lot of talk then about restoring the New Testament church and the need for apostles and that sort of thing. Some things never seem to change.
  6. Eric ~ You’re correct on a lot of churches not stating their position one way or the other, although the three egalitarian churches I attended (Assembly of God, PCUSA, and Church of the Nazarene) all have articles on the denomination web sites which state their position pretty clearly if you do a search for “women.” I thought about qualifying that statement better, but meh, my post was running on long enough and the evidence still adds up.
    And while I don’t like the LDS church’s position on women, props to it for having the cojones to say it clearly on its web site. It really does appear to me like NFI is trying to be sneaky about it.
    The NFI claim to apostolic ministry is kind of interesting, but since they don’t actually have an office of “apostle,” ultimately I don’t really see what the difference is between them and churches with passionate, talented evangelists.
  7. In the case of the AofG and Nazarenes, how egalitarian are they in practice? I know the PCUSA has quite a few female pastors (and isn’t an evangelical denomination even though there are evangelicals in it), but how about the Nazarenes and Assemblies these days? I have no personal knowledge one way or the other, so I’m curious. Neither of those denominations strikes me as ones where female ministers would be common, but I could be wrong.
  8. Eric ~ You’re correct again on PCUSA being mainline. I forget because there was a much larger evangelical faction within the church when I started attending it in 1998, and the local church I went to was heavily evangelical. You can see from their web site that they have a female executive pastor and plenty of female elders and deacons. Sadly I think the denomination as a whole has been hemorrhaging evangelicals for the last decade over the ordination of homosexuals issue.
    According to the Assembly of God 2007 statistics (they haven’t released the 2008 ones), 9.4% of their ordained ministers were women and 19.2% of their total ministers (ordained, licensed, special licensed and certified) were women. Considering that the AoG has huge numbers in third world countries which are more conservative and less accepting of women’s leadership, I don’t think those numbers are that bad.
    I can’t find a similar listing for the Nazarene church and it’s been years since I attended. This pagereports that in 1908, 14% of the ordained clergy and 18% of all ministers and evangelists were women. That’s damned good for 1908, so those stats are probably higher now.
  9. Those are interesting numbers. I was attending an evangelical college when the women’s movement was in its heyday, and while the words “egalitarian” and “complementarian” weren’t used then IIRC, the concepts were ones of much discussion. If I were still an evangelical I’d be in the same camp as you are.
    The issue as it applies to the LDS church is an interesting one. My experience has been that the church is more egalitarian in some ways than its institutional structure would suggest (although I’m fully aware that many, many others have had the opposite experience, as local leadership can make a huge difference). My wife (who has been a Relief Society president and was treated as almost like a member of the bishopric) says she has had much more opportunity to use her spiritual gifts in an LDS context than she ever would have in any of the Protestant churches we attended (and she’s right). And my experience has been that you’re more likely to see a woman teaching a Gospel Doctrine class than you will see a woman teaching a comparable class at many evangelical churches.
    On the other hand, there are some sexist attitudes that take a long time to die, and I don’t pretend otherwise.
  10. Evangelicals used to use the Bible to justify slavery, then they used the Bible to justify racism. Now pretty much all Christians (except fundamentalist white supremacists) agree that the passages pertaining to slavery and racism were cultural considerations only pertinent to the time in which they were written—yet complementarians still try to use the Bible to justify sexism. Those are exactly the three issues touched on in Galatians 3:28 though, slavery, racism and sexism. How long is it going to take to see the majority of Christianity embracing all of Galatians 3:28?
    The LDS church has had a different source on the issue but the same pattern. Mormonism stayed aloof of slavery, but it used modern-day revelation to justify racism and currently uses modern-day revelation to justify sexism. The subject of women & the priesthood came up on MADB a few days ago and a poster named Cold Steel said:
    Women will never receive the priesthood but will, as stated, partake of it through her husband.
    Priesthood is the power by which worlds are created and brought into motion. It is the power to organize the elements. As the man is to God, so should the wife be unto a man. This is a normal chain of command structure and is specifically taught in sacred places.
    Once resurrected, both man and woman will have power and glory beyond our comprehension. Still, it falls to the man to organize the elements. It’s not like the vote, where everyone gets it.
    Oh gods no. Hell no. If that really is the truth behind how the universe is organized—women are subordinate and second-class in this life and they get to be subordinate and second-class in the next life—no thank you. I’ll gladly go to hell or the telestial kingdom or wherever, anywhere that I don’t have to deal with the He-Man Priesthood Power Club. And while I know Cold Steel is just one Mormon on the Internet, his views seem to line up perfectly with what I know of the church’s current teachings.
    All that said, I have appreciated my conversations on this with you, Brian, Rob & Seth, people who feel like this is wrong and it should be changed or at least improved. Ten years ago when I began studying the church, the only answers I ever got were along the lines of Cold Steel’s, and my answer back then was also “hell no.” Everyone made me feel like I was the one who was broken for thinking it was wrong and I was the one who needed to accept it; no one ever suggested that maybe the church is just having a hard time divorcing itself from the patriarchal culture in which it was born.
    That is one of the reasons I love the Pentecostal tradition, btw. They have always led the charge on giving women prominent roles in their movements. Not that they’re perfect, but they are a lot further on the issue than most of the evangelical world.
  11. I went looking for a comment of mine in this thread, but I didn’t find it…
    To be complete, I want to say at least as far as Mormonism and the CoJCoLdS is concerned, I appreciate your acknowledgement of our candor on the subject.
    And, I think Cold Steel is ‘way off base here, because you’re right, in my opinion, that those reasons are not at all what the *Church* teaches about gender roles. I don’t agree with him on any point, because it seems like begging the question to me.
    If we’re to examine the matter in full, we’d have to consider the exigencies which would have shaped gender roles in past cultures. So I take a historical viewpoint and recognize that the lack of conception control and the availability of only silk, wool, and cotton thread would have the effect of rendering virtually all women either pregnant, nursing, or dead from pregnancies gone wrong for most or all of their natural lives. Just by dint of biology, men experience none of that, except vicariously.
    From that comes the precursors to our modern gender roles, with a thousand thousand rationalizations about “why God set it up that way in the first place,” including, perhaps (I could be very, very wrong about this), the story that Eve was the first to partake of the forbidden fruit.
    Anyway, to me it’s pretty much the way Jack put it. People use the Bible to justify all kinds of things, and my impression is that there might come a time among Mormons that, once most all the Mormons are ready (or they’re praying for it), the Church will change its policies with respect to ordination. There are hints of it in some of the things Joseph Smith said when men came to him to complain that women who were given priesthood authority for administering Temple ordinances, who were found giving blessings outside that scope. (Apocryphally, his reply was along the lines of, “Well if the men were doing it, the women wouldn’t have to try!”)
    (Brigham Young a misogynist, when judged by 21st century standards? Say it ain’t so!)
    I think he pushed things about as far as a mid-19th century Western culture could take it. (Priesthood-directed polygyny is the best example of that.) But it seems very clear to me from my *Bible* study that what God wants is people who are equal in all things, who help each other in all things, and who freely choose both.
    I can’t tell when or if the time will come when Church leaders say, “ordain the girls”. The historical run-up to June 1979 was one of the Church opening branches and Stakes in places like Brazil, where the racial picture was not as cleanly understood and where there was less bigotry about race than in the United States. The realities of that caused Church members and leaders to spend 30 years rethinking assumptions about race roles and segregation in general.
    In that case, the people in the Church were praying for a change so that people they loved could be treated better. And they were telling their leaders what they thought of current conditions and why they thought it didn’t make any sense to divide things that way, while also not forgetting that Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel as a Seventy.
    It’s certainly possible that in the future, our culture could change to a point where *nobody understands why* gender roles in the Church are what they are. At this point I don’t see very many women in the Church agitating or praying for a change; the Church has done its level best to include women in almost all the highest councils, with parallel organizational patterns in all but a few facets, but with promises explicitly offered that after the resurrection, there isn’t going to be any difference between men and women where priesthood authority is concerned. They’ll do it together, man and woman, or not at all.
    Thus, my impression is that the current organizational gender divisions are specific to our culture, and that there is no doctrinal basis beyond an acknowledgement that we are what we are and we have to put up with ourselves and each other, and here is one seperate-but-equal way to do it.
  12. Okay, but Rob, you say that the church doesn’t teach what Mr. Cold Steel* is saying–and maybe it doesn’t in so many words–but our leaders do teach that gender and gender roles are eternal and ordained by God. And right now, a woman’s role quite clearly does NOT include ordination. What’s more, I get no sense from modern prophetic teachings–i.e. the Proclamation on the Family, conference talks, etc.–that our gender roles are merely cultural and subject to change.
    And that gives rise to the kinds of problematic views we’re talking about here.
    I appreciate your perspective and think what you’ve said about cultural influence makes a lot of sense…but isn’t there a point at which revelation should trump culture? Shouldn’t we be able to rely on our inspired leaders to teach true things about who and what we are?
    The alternative, of course, is that I’m the one who is up in the night for thinking that I, as a woman, have every bit as much value and eternal potential as a man. And I suppose it’s possible…I mean, I’ve been up in the night before…but it’s a bitter pill to swallow. You know?
    Anyway, Jack, just read through this post. Way to take your first step into feminist activism.
    *Is it just me or is Cold Steel like the worst screen name EVER for this kind of discussion?
  13. Rob ~ I don’t have any comments by you in my spam or pending queues. Sorry, guess WordPress ate it.
    Anyways, I think Katie has a point. I’m trying not to go into details, I spoke with you and Brian a bit in private about the hearken covenant and the temple names thing, but both of those things seem to support the idea that the man is the leader and the initiator in the relationship eternally. What I understand of the names thing especially implies that men go directly through God and women go through their husbands, and this order pertains to the afterlife as well as this life. The symbolism with women having to wear veils while men don’t could also be taken that way, though I understand there are better ways of taking it.
    The fact that men can be sealed to more than one woman but women can’t be sealed to more than one man (the practice of sealing dead women to multiple dead husbands seems to be about giving her a choice, not actually giving her multiple husbands) can also be taken as supporting this. The man is central, he has the creative power (priesthood). The women are secondary so it doesn’t matter how many of them there are in the unit.
    I could go on with more examples, but that’s why I said that I think that what Cold Steel says is supported by current church teaching.
    Katie ~ Anyway, Jack, just read through this post. Way to take your first step into feminist activism.
    I don’t think I’ll ever be a true feminist though. The “good” feminists say that you can’t be a feminist if you’re pro-life (I wonder what Elizabeth Cady Stanton would say to that), and I have a lot of issues with the feminist movement on the whole. Like feminists sucking the cock of every male politician out there who treats women like crap just because he supports abortion rights. Sorry, that’s my World of Warcraft potty mouth talking.
    In fact I’m really just sick of the abortion debate playing so prominently in women’s issues at all; there’s a hell of a lot of other things pertaining to women that I care about which have nothing to do with abortion, but I should stop before I get sidetracked.
    Feminist, no. Christian egalitarian I can be.
  14. Feminism today is a far, far cry (in my opinion) from what the likes of Charlotte Perkins Gilman (no relation that I can find…) had in mind. Read through Herland sometime for a fascinating look at what early feminists and suffragists were thinking in the early 20th Century. Look specifically at how much of a bitter failure the feminist movement has been at convincing many or most women that they don’t have to dress in certain ways in order to attract men…
    The covenant is for a wife to obey the “law of God” (wording changed for obvious reasons) which I think is generally understood to be the same set of commandments that the men take. Yes: They also make a covenant to listen to their husbands, but that is IF and ONLY IF said husband is simultaneously keeping his own covenant to keep the commandments of God, which among many other things also require men to listen to their wives before developing any counsel that she has to hearken to.
    You cannot possibly come to the conclusion that a wife is supposed to be a doormat, under that matrix of covenants.
    Also: as bluntly as I can possibly put it, simply false that women are in any kind of secondary role, due to there being possibly of more of them in a plural marriage arrangement.
    These items do not mean what you’ve assumed them to mean, Jack.
    Also, honestly, the vail (veil? it’s on her head…) thing is something I’ve always understood to be a reminder of Genesis 24:65, or a similar reminder of one or more of the bridegroom parables, not as a symbol of virginal servitude or whatever nonsense people have thought up for it since then. I’ve thought that even about the tradition of wedding veils in any trad-Christian ceremony, since my impression has always been that those things stemmed from ancient practice the way Rebekah did it.
    Katie, look more carefully at the Proclamation. It says that gender is an essential and eternal characteristic. The only two gender roles identified are “Fathers”, who are responsible to provide and protect, and “Mothers”, who are responsible for nurturing children, as “equal partners”.
    It doesn’t need to go any further than that, and *any* gender role division which doesn’t land a woman in a state of complete equality and unity with her husband has no power, whatsoever, to innervate either of them to a life with God or like God’s. 1 Cor. 11:11 still applies, even if some of the rest of Paul’s framework is discarded because we’re no longer bound by certain biological exigencies, having overcome them with clever technology and more hygienic cultural folkways, or no longer subject to 1st Century Greco-Roman folkways.
    “Cold Steel” is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. It’s a terrible misreading of things like 1 Cor. 11 to go that far with those ideas. I don’t care at all if they’re in the Journal of Discourses. Unless he can support it with scripture, correctly contextualized and normalized for the milieu of the original writing, I won’t believe it.
    I can’t believe it, anyway. Have you met my daughters? (rhetorical question) As women, there isn’t anything they won’t be able to do, given a set mind and enough ambition. And I’ll eat my hat before I put up with any ideological framework for them which consigns them away to some sidelined or secondary role in God’s plan.
    Forget that.
    People who believe those things have not understood the scriptures, haven’t actually read all the words in the Proclamation about the family, and I think they have looked beyond the mark. That sort of attitude, seen through modern lenses, practically begs its holder to create an unequalrelationship, and it has no place, in my opinion, in a religion which loudly and clearly proclaims, “If ye are not one, ye are not mine.” (D&C 38:27)
    If there is a way I can be clearer about this, please let me know where I’m not, and I’ll attempt it.
  15. Jack, I’m no feminist scholar, but my understanding is that there are movements within feminism that strongly oppose abortion. They view abortion as a tool the patriarchy has created to minimize the value of maternity, which they argue (and I’d concur) should be embraced as an important and fundamental aspect of womanhood. Abortion is very wrong in the vast majority of cases, should not be so easily accessible, and its widespread acceptance does more harm than good to women and society.
    Having said that, I understand not wanting to throw the “F” word around (“feminist,” not that other one); it’s got a ton of baggage.
    Now if only those quote-unquote “cock-sucking” feminists in DC would just convert to Mormonism, they’d realize that per Spencer W. Kimball, that kind of foolin’ around ain’t allowed anywayz.
    Rob, I appreciate your comment. I went back and re-read the Proclamation and think I was too hard on it. It doesn’t delineate gender roles nearly as rigidly as I’d remembered (though there is still a bit of that language in there). I also agree with you that sexism has no place in a religion which loudly and clearly proclaims, “If ye are not one, ye are not mine.”
    Unfortunately, in many subtle ways, I think sexism is alive and well in doctrine and in practice.
    Look, we’ve moved beyond the idea that the woman is a doormat to the man. But look deeper at the reality that is women in the church for now: a woman can’t lead a Sacrament Meeting…she can’t run an organization without supervision from men…heck, she isn’t even given ultimate authority to preside in her own home. These are “sexist” practices, in so far that the sex of the woman automatically excludes her from leadership by virtue of her womanhood.
    And so either we have to say, well, this really IS the way God intended it–for women to take a back seat and give the leadership over to men–or there’s something wrong with this picture.
    I really do appreciate your point of view, though, and your passion on this topic. It sounds as though you are raising very strong young women. Much to his consternation at times, I know I wouldn’t have been half the woman I am today without my dad. :)
  16. My three daughters are undeniably demure. The oldest is so fixated on right behavior and a dichotomous view of life that I worry she’ll over-Mormon herself. The second is frightened of everything unknown. The third is in the shadow of the other two. They’re all still very young.
    At the same time, the oldest is a fencer (that’s with foils, and jabbing people), the second is a marvelous instrumental musician, and the third is academically formidable. Actually, all three are academically scary-smart. I do not brag.
    At any rate, if they leave my home knowing how to compute an integral, draft a small computer program, write a persuasive essay, read and appreciate good literature, enjoy and perform good music, converse with strangers and friends alike, complain to strangers in fairness, and drive cars without crashing them, all with a belief in their hearts that God loves them and Jesus is Lord, I’ll consider my work more or less done to that point.
    I hope they grow into indomitable strength. It’s certain my wife possesses it, though the form it takes is not at all masculine.
    Of course a definitional kind of sexism is alive in the Church; it’s alive and chewing up the scenery in all the cultures surrounding the Church. The idea of a culture free of gender roles is historically eyeblink-new, and it’s not going to change quickly. (I also think it fair to say that how it changes will surprise us, if we’re alive to see it when it changes.)
    The center of my point is that I don’t know for sure. My speculation resolves around the world as-it-is and takes into account the fact that most world cultures are more sexist, with more sexist assumptions, than even the Western 21st Century culture. The Church is all over the place. So are gender roles.
    Seen from that point of view, the Proclamation on the family is not a departure from a more egalitarian ideal. It’s a step *toward* it, for anyone in a culture sick with “machismo” (for one example), or whatever passes for machismo in Asia which disrupts and warps the relationship of a man to a woman. By simply insisting that God requires fathers to provide, protect, assist with nurturing and consult mothers as equal partners, we repudiate a thousand evils.
    Based on that, perhaps “God intended it” this way to maximize the number of people who could experience the Gospel without an experience they would consider a distraction. (Leading off in sacrament meeting will not exalt, simply put. Other stuff does that.)
    Remember, too, that we’re all operating here under the unspoken assumption that “sexism is bad”. Certainly, abuse of others, including subordination of women based on sexist attitudes is bad, but that’s because the abuse is bad, not because there are never true differences between men and women, or natural inclinations to self-segregate by sex.
    We might even suppose, based on that, that the way the Church is organized is the least sexist way possible at this time, given the characteristics of the people in the Church. We may need to all learn how to get along better, before it makes sense to put a 16 year old young woman next to her boyfriend at the sacrament table, and be sure they behave properly in that role together.
    Lots of ways to look at it exist, without assuming that the picture is wrong. For now.
    And now, I’ve appropriated poor Jack’s blog far too much. Sorry!
  17. SHOUT OUT!!! Sorry that I’ve been so behind on comments and haven’t joined the discussion here. Now I fear that it has run away from me….
    Jack, what’s your reason for looking for an “extremely soft complementarian” church instead of just going all the way to an egalitarian one? (if “egalitarian” is the right term)
  18. Brian ~ I’d prefer to attend a fully egalitarian church, but I’ll have some patience with a church that seems to be well on its way. For example, Church of God in Christ has not begun ordaining women formally, but women have always played an extremely prominent role in the denomination and many are now functioning as pastors on the local level. I predict that they’ll start awarding full ordination status to women in my lifetime.
    It’s likely that from here on out, I’ll seek out either Assemblies of God or Nazarene churches. Doctrinally I think they are the closest to what I believe, and I have roots with them. I was baptized in the Nazarene church (both as an infant and as a 12 year-old) but AoG formally holds my membership records at the moment.
  19. re. new frontiers
    They are hard complimentarians. I know this because I personally know the pastor of the new frontiers church in tacoma, very nice guy, but draws a big, clear line in the sand re women in the church. They don’t allow women to be elders or to teach men. at all. The whole ‘church family’ is like that.
    If you are looking for a really great resource on egalitarian voices, resources, networks and free scholarly papers on the subject, check out the website “christians for biblical equality”. It’s an amazing, articulate, and bible based site that explores our role as ‘equal heirs to the kingdom” (and none of this ‘separate but equal stuff that complimentarians throw our way – or as they word it, ‘equal in essence, but not in role)
  20. Kathy ~ Yup, this post is 4 years old. Been a member of CBE for years and written two articles for them now.

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